I million workers come to UK: defacto open borders?

[tbaldwin]

Basically Baldwin, you think that it's in people's best interests for their ability to move between countries to be restricted, even if they don't think it's in their best interest.

Those who support open borders and free movement of people - as I do - disagree that anyone, state or individual, should prevent me from moving to, and settling where I wish. Anything else - employment agencies overseas, people trafickers etc, are a side issue to the fact that you think that people shouldn't be allowed to move and work where they want to and others don't.

I distantly recall writing on several threads of this nature how those who are concerned about immigrants becoming a cheap labour pool should have been as proactive as the capitalists and set up advice shops that detailed the wage levels that they should have been asking for, rights to unionise and so on and so forth, but it's only in the last 18 months that any unions or other persons have bothered doing so. Is it the capitalist recruitment agencies fault that, typically, socialists complain to the state, or about the state, for not doing anything but absolutely failing to do anything themselves?

I disagree with Nino in the sense that immigration controls are racist - they aren't if they're applied across the board - but they are certainly against the freedom of persons to travel, work and settle where they please.

kyser...I respect your honesty in putting forwards views that are about protecting the rights and freedoms of individuals.
But as a Socialist, i think you have to look at how those individual freedoms effect others.

And i think it is becoming clearer and clearer to more and more people. Supporting economic migration leads to a much more unequal world.

 

[Knotted]

I've posted links and articles on this subject and none of you have read them.

That's a lie of course.

I wouldn't mind but none of you ever post links or articles that support your contentions. To that end, you are not only dishonest but you don't appear to have a proper grasp of this issue and are more content to regurgitate the same scare stories as the tabloid press.

And here's at least two projections.

The first and most obvious is the accusation of dishonesty.

The second projection is the accusation of not having a proper grasp.

There is probably also a third half hidden projection. Its the accusation of no link with the left.

Think about it. Nino has had a whole week to come up with something to back his theories. He manages to find:

1) An old article from the IRR, which he clearly hasn't read all the way through.
2) Some liberal christian fluff. Again he hasn't properly read this but more importantly it seems very unlikely that he is some sort of campaigning christian.
3) An article from Fight Racism! Fight Imperialism! This is a paper that he has recently confused with the paper of the Sparticist League. He knows nothing about its politics.

So all in all, if he were a leftist of some kind, with actual links or at least some familiarity with some sort of organised leftwing activity, he would have resources at his disposal. He would know where to look when he gets stuck. He would have a rough familiarity with leftwing groups and their positions.

He's clearly just making it up as he goes along. Nino does not have a position on this question, he just poses.

Also I'd add that although I've heard plenty of viscious arguement on the left, in my experience its very rare indeed to hear a socialist of any sort scream "your thick" at a political opponent.

 

[ViolentPanda]

What utter white liberal shit you come out with....What immigration controls are racist exactly?.
Supporting economic migration is racist though. It clearly means that poorer african and asian countries lose skilled workers to rich countries,full of white people.
You support racist policies nino perhaps without realising?

Nah, I don't think any shit nino might come out with is white, Balders.

 

[nino_savatte]

What utter white liberal shit you come out with....What immigration controls are racist exactly?.
Supporting economic migration is racist though. It clearly means that poorer african and asian countries lose skilled workers to rich countries,full of white people.
You support racist policies nino perhaps without realising?

"White liberal shit"? You really are quite barking you stupid, thick twat.

You know, I'm actually coming around to the idea that you're really a racist, but you don't have the guts or decency to come clean.

You support greater immigration controls and such controls are directed against people of colour. You're a racist, end of story.

Now fuck off.

 

[nino_savatte]

But as a Socialist,

.

You're not a socialist at all. You're a liar and a closet racist.

 

[nino_savatte]

Knotted
This message is hidden because Knotted is on your ignore list.

Just in case you'd forgotten.

 

[Knotted]

Just in case you'd forgotten.

And back to "talk to the hand because the face ain't listening."

Bet you have a lovely face, Nino.

 

[nino_savatte]

Another soft shoe shuffle from Knotted, no doubt. Baldwin will be along in a little while to spew more of his nonsense and beckyp will back him up by claiming that "I hate people who disagree with me". FFS!

I've heard better arguments from 6th form college students (that's not a slur on 6th formers btw, though baldwin will chip in with his silly FE/HE schtick again).

 

[Knotted]

Another soft shoe shuffle from Knotted, no doubt. Baldwin will be along in a little while to spew more of his nonsense and beckyp will back him up by claiming that "I hate people who disagree with me". FFS!

I've heard better arguments from 6th form college students (that's not a slur on 6th formers btw, though baldwin will chip in with his silly FE/HE schtick again).

So am I on ignore or not? Tease.

 

[becky p]

What utter white liberal shit you come out with....What immigration controls are racist exactly?.
Supporting economic migration is racist though. It clearly means that poorer african and asian countries lose skilled workers to rich countries,full of white people.
You support racist policies nino perhaps without realising?

I think that is an interesting point. Again and again people equate supporting immigration controls with being Racist.
But are immigration controls Racist? I dont think those people who appear to support that position have come up with anything approaching proof or a logical arguement.

 

[ViolentPanda]

I think that is an interesting point. Again and again people equate supporting immigration controls with being Racist.

Really, where?

But are immigration controls Racist? I dont think those people who appear to support that position have come up with anything approaching proof or a logical arguement.

Immigration controls can be racist. That doesn't mean they always are. They can also be inherently racist, depending on the reason they're enacted. That doesn't mean they always are, either. It does mean that some people may PERCEIVE them as racist.

A similar argument can be made about pro-open borders enthusiasts. Sometimes they're liberals, lackies of Capitalism and whatever other name balders wants to throw at them. That doesn't mean they always are.

And becky?

You shouldn't tax people about proof and logical argument if you can't meet your own high standards.

 

[becky p]

Really, where?

Do you have Mr savatte on ignore?

 

[nino_savatte]

I think that is an interesting point. Again and again people equate supporting immigration controls with being Racist.
But are immigration controls Racist? I dont think those people who appear to support that position have come up with anything approaching proof or a logical arguement.

Why do you use a capital "R" in the word "racist"? It isn't a proper name, you know.

From my own experience, immigration controls tend to be racist because they are often directed against persons of colour. Have you ever been denied access to anywhere on the basis of your skin colour? I'll bet you haven't.

 

[nino_savatte]

Do you have Mr savatte on ignore?

Why would he have me on "ignore"?

"You think that your opinions are factual"....what a stupid thing to say!

 

[ViolentPanda]

Do you have Mr savatte on ignore?

One swallow doesn't make a summer.

You specifically said "people" though, so I'd be REALLY grateful if you'd post up some examples to support your claim. I'm sure you'll be able to find loads.

Thanks awfully.

 

[tbaldwin]

Nah, I don't think any shit nino might come out with is white, Balders.

That says a lot about how you see the world doesnt it.
People like Lee Jasper etc etfucking cetra come out with white liberal shit all the time. I dont give a shit what ninos skin colour is. He comes out with poxy white liberal shit.

 

[nino_savatte]

That says a lot about how you see the world doesnt it.
People like Lee Jasper etc etfucking cetra come out with white liberal shit all the time. I dont give a shit what ninos skin colour is. He comes out with poxy white liberal shit.

Well, only a braindead wee prick like you could come out with so many non-sequitirs. Sorry, I should correct myself, a braindead racist prick like you....

 

[tbaldwin]

Well, only a braindead wee prick like you could come out with so many non-sequitirs. Sorry, I should correct myself, a braindead racist prick like you....

racist against who nino?

 

[tbaldwin]

One swallow doesn't make a summer.

Yeah thats it big yourself up with the ladies.......

 

[nino_savatte]

racist against who nino?

LOL!!!! Yer a real cock, balders.

 

[tbaldwin]

LOL!!!! Yer a real cock, balders.

Not good on answers for straight questions are you nino.....racist against who?

 

[nino_savatte]

Not good on answers for straight questions are you nino.....racist against who?

LOL!!!! You're a fine one to demand "straight answers", aren't you, numbskull?

 

[ViolentPanda]

That says a lot about how you see the world doesnt it.
People like Lee Jasper etc etfucking cetra come out with white liberal shit all the time. I dont give a shit what ninos skin colour is. He comes out with poxy white liberal shit.

Balders, you're a fuckwit. I knew you'd bite when I wrote that, and you haven't disappointed me, you muppet.

What colour is shit, Balders, eh?

It isn't white, is it?

No human's shit is white unless they eat loads of calcium carbonate.

What a grade "A" twat.

 

[ViolentPanda]

Yeah thats it big yourself up with the ladies.......

Mmm, if I wanted to do that I wouldn't be making a remark to point out that a single example doesn't represent a trend, would I?

I love it when you make yourself look dumb, it's free entertainment, and it's regular!

 

[nino_savatte]

Keep it up, baudouin.

You should be a gag writer for Ben Elton.

 

[Knotted]

Well, only a braindead wee prick like you could come out with so many non-sequitirs. Sorry, I should correct myself, a braindead racist prick like you....

This is really disgraceful. Has nobody got the balls to stand up to it?

 

[becky p]

Balders, you're a fuckwit. I knew you'd bite when I wrote that, and you haven't disappointed me, you muppet.

What colour is shit, Balders, eh?

It isn't white, is it?

No human's shit is white unless they eat loads of calcium carbonate.

What a grade "A" twat.

So you assume that baldwin meant the shit coming out of ninos arse!
Interesting.

 

[audiotech]

This is getting tiresome.

 

[ViolentPanda]

This is really disgraceful. Has nobody got the balls to stand up to it?

You should check in your own underwear, as you seem to be the only person irritated.

 

[ViolentPanda]

So you assume that baldwin meant the shit coming out of ninos arse!
Interesting.

I assume nothing, I leave that to you.
If baldwin meant nino was talking shit, why would he bring colour into the equation (unless Balders is colour-prejudiced, which he assures me he isn't)?