I million workers come to UK: defacto open borders?

[Jessiedog]

I'm an International Socialist who argues for International and Socialist solutions,

I think that it's not dogmatic to argue that policies should be decided by the majority view and interest.

majority of who/what?

what are yer boundaries?

how do you know its a majority?

whose policies?

etc etc.

1 Everybody over 18.

2 There not set by me....But its not a bad idea.

3 Counting

4 Let the people decide.


5 I put my faith in the majority deciding policies not in any minority no matter how benevolent they may appear to be at first.

Once again, baldwin, you're repeating this spurious nonsense, having more than once failed to respond to my point that disproves your claim to support the majority.

I'll try again.

You claim to be an internationalist, interested in the views of the majority.

Well, I can probably come up with around 500 million or so peeps (probably more,) who'd happily vote for their right to come and live and work in the UK.

How many votes do you think you could muster in opposition?

Where does that leave your thesis?



Woof

 

[Jessiedog]

Economic migration means taking skilled workers from poorer countries. A shortage of skilled workers leads to more poverty and death in those countries.

Bollocks!

Please show some credible evidence that economic migration leads to "poverty and death".

Or stop talking shite.

I've explained to you how things work in the Philippines, how the country's economic survival depends upon remittances and how the country benefits from the export of nurses - as more people enter nursing and then leave the country, so more people enter nursing and then stay at home.

For a supposed "internationalist", you seem to know relatively little about the wider world beyond the small island you inhabit.


So, where's your evidence, put up or shut up.



Woof

 

[Jessiedog]

That's what I meant. I'm well aware that mass immigration is being used to undermine wages and union organisation.

Why should it not swell and strengthen union ranks?

Are unions not attractive to immigrants - and if not, why not?



Woof

 

[ViolentPanda]

Why should it not swell and strengthen union ranks?

Are unions not attractive to immigrants - and if not, why not?



Woof

UK trade unions are fairly unattractive, imo.
There's still grassroots stuff done by local and regional memberships, but in many cases the executive seem to have lost the plot when it comes to actually selling the idea that union membership is a good thing. They seem to be more interested in selling insurance policies and credit cards from which the union coffers benefit.

 

[tbaldwin]

Once again, baldwin, you're repeating this spurious nonsense, having more than once failed to respond to my point that disproves your claim to support the majority.

I'll try again.

You claim to be an internationalist, interested in the views of the majority.

Well, I can probably come up with around 500 million or so peeps (probably more,) who'd happily vote for their right to come and live and work in the UK.

How many votes do you think you could muster in opposition?

Where does that leave your thesis?



Woof

600 million.

Do you really think the answer to worldwide inequality is for labour to follow capital.
That would mark you out as an Internationalist Jessie...But it certainly wouldnt mark you out as an International Socialist.

 

[durruti02]

Nice spin there. But the only ignorant one here is you. You're the one who cannot seem to understand that immigration isn;t the problem. You continue to labour under the same deluded belief as the rest of the anti-immigrationists.

If anyone is doing anything to stir up trouble it is you and your fellow travellers. You are content to delude yourselves with the notion that immigration is bad and those who come here, do so to "steal our jobs". It is you who is the bigot, not me.

I don't live in a "tiny ghetto". You inhabit and intellectual ghetto bordered by ignorance that is policed by prejudice.

i have never ever ever stated people come here to steal our jobs .. your are really need to read what people write mate.

i am talking about a process. i do not attack or blame immigrants in any way at all. BUT the fact remains the neo liberals/thatcherites/blairites/spiv cowboy company owning scum .. etc etc .. could NOT do what they have done without this recent wave of immigration.

we are ALL in one way or another immigrants .. our worlds is based on migration .. i am asking /stating that migration is a creation of poverty and recently neo liberalism and as such we need to take a long hard look at who is benefiting and how it affects us all ..

and sorry with your post count i will repeat that you are in aghetto .. i am not

so please answer to me NOW .. why i am a bigot ..

 

[tbaldwin]

durrutti, I think hes been banned after another wild accusation of racism.

Sadly though he is not the only person here who seems to believe that anybody questioning free market policies on migration is probably some kind of racist....
And most of them lay in waiting for us to say something like " Some of my best friends are Black" oooppsedaise.......

 

[durruti02]

Like your fellow travellers, all you can do is project and take what I say and twist it. You, baldwin and durruti never make any attempt to deal with any of the points that I have raised. You're more content to complain that "I hate anyone who disagrees with me" or some such juvenile shite. It's neither honest nor intelligent.

I have made nothing up. You're a liar.

nino .. look at your posts to me .. there are NO points to deal with .. it is just abuse see below


Such a typically narrow view from a very narrow mind. You've done little here to avoid making yourself look like a bigot.

What? Like your statements are more relevant? Fuck me, you're arrogant as well as thick.

Your immigration threads are no more than a cover for your own prejudices.

Have you ever heard of the Knownothings? That's you.

Oh, who constitutes this "Left" that you speak of? By using this sort of phraseology, one might expect that you're on the Right - are you? Or will you just play some silly semantic game to avoid answering the question?

Perhaps you're just not honest enough to admit to all of us, exactly where your political sympathies lie.

Who is this majority that you speak of? I get the feeling that it's in your imagination...just like this "Left" that you keep crapping on about.

not good stuff mate ..

 

[nino_savatte]

durrutti, I think hes been banned after another wild accusation of racism.

Sadly though he is not the only person here who seems to believe that anybody questioning free market policies on migration is probably some kind of racist....
And most of them lay in waiting for us to say something like " Some of my best friends are Black" oooppsedaise.......

What an imagination you have, balders. Here, you use the phrase "free market policies on migration" (like so many others) but call for greater immigration controls...and you see absolutely no contradiction in that? FFS.

 

[nino_savatte]

i have never ever ever stated people come here to steal our jobs .. your are really need to read what people write mate.

i am talking about a process. i do not attack or blame immigrants in any way at all. BUT the fact remains the neo liberals/thatcherites/blairites/spiv cowboy company owning scum .. etc etc .. could NOT do what they have done without this recent wave of immigration.

we are ALL in one way or another immigrants .. our worlds is based on migration .. i am asking /stating that migration is a creation of poverty and recently neo liberalism and as such we need to take a long hard look at who is benefiting and how it affects us all ..

and sorry with your post count i will repeat that you are in aghetto .. i am not

so please answer to me NOW .. why i am a bigot ..

Tbph, you never make yourself clear what it is you're trying to say. On the one hand you make statements like this:

BUT the fact remains the neo liberals/thatcherites/blairites/spiv cowboy company owning scum .. etc etc .. could NOT do what they have done without this recent wave of immigration.

Then say something like this:

we need to take a long hard look at who is benefiting and how it affects us all ..

Which is possibly another way of saying 'we' need "greater controls". Though you've not said as much. Why?

I'm not sure what you mean by this, care to elaborate?

i will repeat that you are in aghetto

 

[nino_savatte]

answer a)

what worries me is that your ignorence is fueling a massive right wing back lash in this country which will not only effect you but me too

That's a nice bit of Orwellian logic there, me auld fruit. I fail to see how my opposition to immigration controls fuels a "massive right wing back lash".You're going to have to convince me, because from where I'm standing there is a problematic with that idea.

 

[nino_savatte]

nino .. look at your posts to me .. there are NO points to deal with .. it is just abuse see below


Such a typically narrow view from a very narrow mind. You've done little here to avoid making yourself look like a bigot.

What? Like your statements are more relevant? Fuck me, you're arrogant as well as thick.

Your immigration threads are no more than a cover for your own prejudices.

Have you ever heard of the Knownothings? That's you.

Oh, who constitutes this "Left" that you speak of? By using this sort of phraseology, one might expect that you're on the Right - are you? Or will you just play some silly semantic game to avoid answering the question?

Perhaps you're just not honest enough to admit to all of us, exactly where your political sympathies lie.

Who is this majority that you speak of? I get the feeling that it's in your imagination...just like this "Left" that you keep crapping on about.

not good stuff mate ..

"Not good stuff"? Aye, right.

Do you know who the Knownothings were? I even gave you a link. But you didn't look at it and there's a good reason for that - right, durutti?

You continue to whip out this phrase "the Left" whenever you get into a twist. Why?

 

[nino_savatte]

The Know Nothings

The platform of the American Party called for, among other things:

* Severe limits on immigration, especially from Catholic countries.
* Restricting political office to native-born Americans
* Mandating a wait of 21 years before an immigrant could gain citizenship.
* Restricting public school teachers to Protestants.
* Mandating daily Bible readings in public schools (from the Protestant version of the Bible).
* Restricting the sale of liquor.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Know-Nothing_movement

Some things never change.

Imagine the chaos: the new immigrants were often poor, sick, and desperate for jobs. They crowded into already crowded cities, competed for jobs and, in the eyes of Mr. Allen, became part of the problem. The Order that he founded became the Know-Nothing party. It had a few tenets and they were:

http://www.ustrek.org/odyssey/semester1/111100/111100daphknow.html

 

[becky p]

Some things never change.

And some do. The trick is looking at things with an open mind,not something that you seem able to do.

 

[nino_savatte]

And some do. The trick is looking at things with an open mind,not something that you seem able to do.

So supporting greater immigration controls is what? Open minded? Nice bit of Orwellian logic there.

You keep making these snide comments but seem unable to actually challenge what I've posted. I think that speaks volumes about you.

 

[Knotted]

So supporting greater immigration controls is what? Open minded? Nice bit of Orwellian logic there.

You keep making these snide comments but seem unable to actually challenge what I've posted. I think that speaks volumes about you.

Notice that its the points that nino has posted, not Panda or anybody else. The important thing is not that anybody is persuaded of anything, but that nino looks good. Am I the only one who finds this performance incredibly camp?

 

[nino_savatte]

Notice that its the points that nino has posted, not Panda or anybody else. The important thing is not that anybody is persuaded of anything, but that nino looks good. Am I the only one who finds this performance incredibly camp?

"Performance"? "Camp"? So presumably you think beckyp made a valid point? How is support for greater controls "open-minded"?

 

[Knotted]

"Performance"? "Camp"? So presumably you think beckyp made a valid point? How is support for greater controls "open-minded"?

You know full well that becky said no such thing.

 

[nino_savatte]

You know full well that becky said no such thing.

This is what beckyp said

The trick is looking at things with an open mind,not something that you seem able to do

She supports controls...which can, in no way, be considered open-minded; though she accuses me of not being open minded. If she is so "open-minded" why is it so difficult for her to see that immigration controls are not only racist but don't work? She expects me to see her pov but is unprepared to countenance the same with me.

 

[Knotted]

This is what beckyp said



She supports controls...which can, in no way, be considered open-minded.

Let's suppose, for the sake of arguement, that becky is not open minded. Let's suppose that she is being hippocritical. This still does not mean that you are being open minded and it still does not mean that she is not correct in pointing this out.

Eta: It might just mean, though, that you look better than she does. Which is your real concern of course.

 

[nino_savatte]

Let's suppose, for the sake of arguement, that becky is not open minded. Let's suppose that she is being hippocritical. This still does not mean that you are being open minded and it still does not mean that she is not correct in pointing this out.

I think you're talking rubbish. The whole point of beckyp saying what she said was to hide the fact that she has no real thoughts on immigration but is happy to go along with the rest of the gang and the narratives put forward by the tabloid press. She has not been able to formulate a coherent argument nor has she been able to challenge anything that I've said. If you think she has, then you are not living in the real world.

Btw, the word is "hypocritical".

 

[Knotted]

I think you're talking rubbish. The whole point of beckyp saying what she said was to hide the fact that she has no real thoughts on immigration but is happy to go along with the rest of the gang and the narratives put forward by the tabloid press. She has not been able to formulate a coherent argument nor has she been able to challenge anything that I've said. If you think she has, then you are not living in the real world.

You look better than her in your mind.

Btw, the word is "hypocritical".

You look better than me in your mind.

 

[becky p]

So supporting greater immigration controls is what? Open minded? Nice bit of Orwellian logic there.

You keep making these snide comments but seem unable to actually challenge what I've posted. I think that speaks volumes about you.

Some people say they support immigration controls,some say they oppose them. Whatever people say,nino. Immigration controls are a fact of life.

And i would be very interested to know exactly how you oppose immigration controls. Apart from your contributions on here of course.

 

[nino_savatte]

Some people say they support immigration controls,some say they oppose them. Whatever people say,nino. Immigration controls are a fact of life.

And i would be very interested to know exactly how you oppose immigration controls. Apart from your contributions on here of course.

I've outlined my views, you just haven't bothered to read them. If you had, you wouldn't be asking that question.

What you and your friends have consistently failed to do, is challenge my position. All you have done is to make comments like "You don't like people disagreeing with you". Which is rather odd, because I am the one taking issue with your collective position. So it is you who doesn't appreciate others disagreeing with you.

Did you read any of my posts properly? No, if anything you have selectivised bits of text which you taken out of context and thrown back at me.

Interestingly enough, none of you have ever managed to muster a rebuttal to the charge that immigration controls contribute directly to racism; and that immigration controls are, in themselves, racist. I've posted links and articles on this subject and none of you have read them. I wouldn't mind but none of you ever post links or articles that support your contentions. To that end, you are not only dishonest but you don't appear to have a proper grasp of this issue and are more content to regurgitate the same scare stories as the tabloid press.

 

[tbaldwin]

How many Black and Asian people agree with nino about immigration controls?
And how many are worried that hundreds of thousands of black people are left on the scrapheap as a new wave of white migrants come to the uk.

Supporting Economic migration is fine if you see nothing wrong with a capitalist dog eat dog society. A fascistic nightmare of survival of the fittest.
People like fanon pointed out that slavery was replaced not by true freedom but economic slavery.
Nino you seem to be on the side of the slave traders.
The people who want to take the skilled workers poorer countries need most.

Your infantile suggestions that anybody who disagrees with you is relying on tabloid scare stories is as laughable as the rest of your politics.

 

[nino_savatte]

How many Black and Asian people agree with nino about immigration controls?
And how many are worried that hundreds of thousands of black people are left on the scrapheap as a new wave of white migrants come to the uk.

Supporting Economic migration is fine if you see nothing wrong with a capitalist dog eat dog society. A fascistic nightmare of survival of the fittest.
People like fanon pointed out that slavery was replaced not by true freedom but economic slavery.
Nino you seem to be on the side of the slave traders.
The people who want to take the skilled workers poorer countries need most.

Your infantile suggestions that anybody who disagrees with you is relying on tabloid scare stories is as laughable as the rest of your politics.

Got any figures for those assertions, baldwin?

I thought not. Typical.

 

[tbaldwin]

Got any figures for those assertions, baldwin?

I thought not. Typical.

Not an arguement against what im saying. But nino you really aernt clever enough for that. To learn anything you need a bit of humility. Not something you ever show any signs of.....

You have lined up with the forces of reaction. The rich landlords and bosses,who when things get a bit hot can always blame the reactionary rabble.

But it is you and they who have the shit politics.

 

[nino_savatte]

Not an arguement against what im saying. But nino you really aernt clever enough for that. To learn anything you need a bit of humility. Not something you ever show any signs of.....

You have lined up with the forces of reaction. The rich landlords and bosses,who when things get a bit hot can always blame the reactionary rabble.

But it is you and they who have the shit politics.

Again you make assertions but don't have the guts or the intelligence to back them up. You didn't put forward an '"argument". You really are quite deranged.

You support racist immigration controls. Now tell me how such controls aren't racist and provide some evidence to support your claim and I may entertain your posts, but until such time, go whistle.

 

[tbaldwin]

Again you make assertions but don't have the guts or the intelligence to back them up. You didn't put forward an '"argument". You really are quite deranged.

You support racist immigration controls. Now tell me how such controls aren't racist and provide some evidence to support your claim and I may entertain your posts, but until such time, go whistle.

What utter white liberal shit you come out with....What immigration controls are racist exactly?.
Supporting economic migration is racist though. It clearly means that poorer african and asian countries lose skilled workers to rich countries,full of white people.
You support racist policies nino perhaps without realising?

 

[kyser_soze]

Basically Baldwin, you think that it's in people's best interests for their ability to move between countries to be restricted, even if they don't think it's in their best interest.

Those who support open borders and free movement of people - as I do - disagree that anyone, state or individual, should prevent me from moving to, and settling where I wish. Anything else - employment agencies overseas, people trafickers etc, are a side issue to the fact that you think that people shouldn't be allowed to move and work where they want to and others don't.

I distantly recall writing on several threads of this nature how those who are concerned about immigrants becoming a cheap labour pool should have been as proactive as the capitalists and set up advice shops that detailed the wage levels that they should have been asking for, rights to unionise and so on and so forth, but it's only in the last 18 months that any unions or other persons have bothered doing so. Is it the capitalist recruitment agencies fault that, typically, socialists complain to the state, or about the state, for not doing anything but absolutely failing to do anything themselves?

I disagree with Nino in the sense that immigration controls are racist - they aren't if they're applied across the board - but they are certainly against the freedom of persons to travel, work and settle where they please.