I million workers come to UK: defacto open borders?

[nino_savatte]

It would seem to me that it is only money and those who control it who enjoy unhindered movement across borders. The people who go in search of money are the ones who take the blame from anti-immigrationists who moan about skilled jobs being lost in this country and then apply the reverse argument to the countries where the immigrants originate.

If we had no nation-states, then we wouldn't be having such a discussion,

 

[tbaldwin]

It would seem to me that it is only money and those who control it who enjoy unhindered movement across borders. The people who go in search of money are the ones who take the blame from anti-immigrationists who moan about skilled jobs being lost in this country and then apply the reverse argument to the countries where the immigrants originate.

If we had no nation-states, then we wouldn't be having such a discussion,

It seems to me your talking shit again.
As an anti immigrationist as you put it.....I have said time and time again i dont blame anyone for wanting to do the best for themselves and their families i would do exactly the same as they and my dad did.
It is the system that needs to change.

 

[nino_savatte]

It seems to me your talking shit again.
As an anti immigrationist as you put it.....I have said time and time again i dont blame anyone for wanting to do the best for themselves and their families i would do exactly the same as they and my dad did.
It is the system that needs to change.

Still dishing it out...ho hum.

Your position has been found to be contradictory and you're lashing out. Even here, in this post, you contradict your position. Bizarre.

 

[tbaldwin]

What is the contradiction?
I am arguing that Economic migration is not a good thing. That doesnt mean that i hate economic migrants. Is that really too difficult for you to understand?

 

[nino_savatte]

What is the contradiction?
I am arguing that Economic migration is not a good thing. That doesnt mean that i hate economic migrants. Is that really too difficult for you to understand?

What's the "contradiction"? Oh deary me, where do I begin?

I have said time and time again i dont blame anyone for wanting to do the best for themselves and their families

You don't "blame" them but you don't want them here. That's just for starters. You don't "blame" them but you aren't willing to countenance the underlying causes of migration or, indeed, the numbers of skilled workers who leave this country every year. There isn't just a contradiction to your position, there is also a fundamental flaw in your argument - particularly for one who claims to be a 'socialist'.

 

[tbaldwin]

You don't "blame" them but you don't want them here. That's just for starters. You don't "blame" them but you aren't willing to countenance the underlying causes of migration or, indeed, the numbers of skilled workers who leave this country every year. There isn't just a contradiction to your position, there is also a fundamental flaw in your argument - particularly for one who claims to be a 'socialist'.

"counternance the underlying causes of migration"

The causes are inequality. Economic migration makes that worse. Thats why i'm against it, as ive repeated over and over again.

Do you think that people should just go wherever the money is?
Do you think that is a good position for a Socialist to take?

I think you know Open borders would lead to a humanitarian catastrophe. Is that what you want?

 

[Giles]

2 You think that taking nurses from countries like South Africa wont lead to any deaths?

This is where I have a problem with your view on this. You always talk about people "taking" other people from places, as if the slave trade was still going on.

These are people, just like you, with ideas and ambitions of their own. Some will want to go abroad and earn more money for a while, some won't.

Its their choice. They can find job ads on the internet.

Don't talk about people as if they somehow are the property of their home country, economic assets that have to be used for the greater good.

Would you accept it if you wanted to go and work or live somewhere else and the government turned round and said "No, you belong to us and you are too valuable to be allowed to leave"?

Giles..

 

[nino_savatte]

"counternance the underlying causes of migration"

The causes are inequality. Economic migration makes that worse. Thats why i'm against it, as ive repeated over and over again.

Do you think that people should just go wherever the money is?
Do you think that is a good position for a Socialist to take?

I think you know Open borders would lead to a humanitarian catastrophe. Is that what you want?

You have no proof that "open borders would lead to a humanitarian catastrophe". Like all statists, you cling to your beloved idea of the nation-state and the nationalism it embraces. You demand proof but are unwilling to oblige when asked.

 

[tbaldwin]

This is where I have a problem with your view on this. You always talk about people "taking" other people from places, as if the slave trade was still going on.

These are people, just like you, with ideas and ambitions of their own. Some will want to go abroad and earn more money for a while, some won't.

Its their choice. They can find job ads on the internet.

Don't talk about people as if they somehow are the property of their home country, economic assets that have to be used for the greater good.

Would you accept it if you wanted to go and work or live somewhere else and the government turned round and said "No, you belong to us and you are too valuable to be allowed to leave"?

Giles..

1 It is. Are you familiar with the term economic slavery Giles?

2 Agree.

3 How many people in developing countries have access to the internet?

4 I'm a Socialist which means a belief in the greater good.

5 Me...I would try to get round it. Unless i had faith in the govt of my country, that they were doing all they could to change the system that made that choice attractive.

 

[tbaldwin]

You have no proof that "open borders would lead to a humanitarian catastrophe". Like all statists, you cling to your beloved idea of the nation-state and the nationalism it engenders. You demand proof but are unwilling to oblige when asked.

Like you have no proof that if a huge meteorite landed on London that it could lead to thousands of dead.....

Seriously do you really think a humanitarian catastrophe could be averted if rich countries suddenly opened their doors to everyone who wanted to come in?
Do you think London could cope with an extra 70 Million Immigrants?

 

[nino_savatte]

Like you have no proof that if a huge meteorite landed on London that it could lead to thousands of dead.....

Seriously do you really think a humanitarian catastrophe could be averted if rich countries suddenly opened their doors to everyone who wanted to come in?
Do you think London could cope with an extra 70 Million Immigrants?

My, what analysis. You're like a relic from the 19th century. No, relics from the 19th century have their uses, you don't.

 

[chilango]

3 How many people in developing countries have access to the internet?

Actually quite a lot (from my experience in Sudan)

 

[ViolentPanda]

Like you have no proof that if a huge meteorite landed on London that it could lead to thousands of dead.....

Seriously do you really think a humanitarian catastrophe could be averted if rich countries suddenly opened their doors to everyone who wanted to come in?
Do you think London could cope with an extra 70 Million Immigrants?

London cope with 70 million?

Talk about plucking a figure out of your arse!

With every port and airport working flat out to process new arrivals they could probably manage 2,000-3,000 a day, which means it'd take about 65 years for 70 million immigrants to be processed, probably longer, knowing how slowly the immigration service works.

 

[Giles]

1 It is. Are you familiar with the term economic slavery Giles?

2 Agree.

3 How many people in developing countries have access to the internet?

4 I'm a Socialist which means a belief in the greater good.

5 Me...I would try to get round it. Unless i had faith in the govt of my country, that they were doing all they could to change the system that made that choice attractive.

1. I am familiar with the term "economic slavery".

2. Good

3. More than you might think - even in poor countries there are internet cafes around the place. And anyway - that was just an example of how people might look for jobs overseas. They could also use local papers and magazines to find adverts, or specialist agencies, etc. My point was that people can find jobs abroad if they want to, by whatever means they can.

4. Do you believe that you are an economic asset of Great Britain, and that if the UK government decide that they "need" you, it would be fair for them to stop you leaving?

5. If you would try to get round such a restriction if it did not suit you, why shouldn't people from Africa etc do the same?

Giles..

 

[brasicritique]

You clearly have trouble with the idea that someone can come along and challenge your ideas on immigration.

Judging by your rather weak posts on the matter this indeed is laughable

This is the quality of response that I have come to expect from your lot

Your lot who are my lot please elaborate nino? You mean wasist phantasms? I think your point here reflects your own social status and personal insecurities.Oh look its a bus driver and he can talk help mummy
I think your pathetic plural post sums up your neo-con elitist perspective.Plural? You truely are the political alan partridge of urban

And as for vilerot rantas little lame comment well you seem to appear anally fixated.Still you are the master of political scatology

you are both in bed with the neocons and you know it even giles agrees with you

 

[ViolentPanda]

More drivel, brasic?

Well done.

 

[nino_savatte]

You clearly have trouble with the idea that someone can come along and challenge your ideas on immigration.

Judging by your rather weak posts on the matter this indeed is laughable

This is the quality of response that I have come to expect from your lot

Your lot who are my lot please elaborate nino? You mean wasist phantasms? I think your point here reflects your own social status and personal insecurities.Oh look its a bus driver and he can talk help mummy
I think your pathetic plural post sums up your neo-con elitist perspective.Plural? You truely are the political alan partridge of urban

And as for vilerot rantas little lame comment well you seem to appear anally fixated.Still you are the master of political scatology

you are both in bed with the neocons and you know it even giles agrees with you

I won't take any lessons from someone who can't even construct a sentence properly.

Here's a piece of advice: never come to the keyboard when you've been drinking.

 

[becky p]

London cope with 70 million?

Talk about plucking a figure out of your arse!

With every port and airport working flat out to process new arrivals they could probably manage 2,000-3,000 a day, which means it'd take about 65 years for 70 million immigrants to be processed, probably longer, knowing how slowly the immigration service works.

So there would still be immigration controls withour borders would there.
Just love your logic,Private.

 

[ViolentPanda]

So there would still be immigration controls withour borders would there.
Just love your logic,Private.

Did you read the post I was replying to? No mention of "no borders" there, is there? Just a mention of "throwing open the doors". I think someone is guilty of making assumptions, and it ain't me!

See the thread title, know what "de facto" means?

Are you getting my point yet?

Your logic is as risible as your humility, becky.

 

[guinnessdrinker]

You clearly have trouble with the idea that someone can come along and challenge your ideas on immigration.

Judging by your rather weak posts on the matter this indeed is laughable

This is the quality of response that I have come to expect from your lot

Your lot who are my lot please elaborate nino? You mean wasist phantasms? I think your point here reflects your own social status and personal insecurities.Oh look its a bus driver and he can talk help mummy
I think your pathetic plural post sums up your neo-con elitist perspective.Plural? You truely are the political alan partridge of urban

And as for vilerot rantas little lame comment well you seem to appear anally fixated.Still you are the master of political scatology

you are both in bed with the neocons and you know it even giles agrees with you

what are you on about? can you explain? I can't be bothered to read this whole thread, you see.

 

[ViolentPanda]

what are you on about? can you explain? I can't be bothered to read this whole thread, you see.

Going on what he's previously posted, do you seriously think he could explain what he's on about (even to himself)?

Nah.

 

[guinnessdrinker]

Going on what he's previously posted, do you seriously think he could explain what he's on about (even to himself)?

Nah.

I assume he doesn't have the brain cells to explain, but I am not going to waste time trying to decipher his ramblings.

 

[tbaldwin]

Did you read the post I was replying to? No mention of "no borders" there, is there? Just a mention of "throwing open the doors". I think someone is guilty of making assumptions, and it ain't me!

See the thread title, know what "de facto" means?

Are you getting my point yet?

Your logic is as risible as your humility, becky.

Becky hope that helps...
VP once again makes his position Clear as mud.

 

[tbaldwin]

Going on what he's previously posted, do you seriously think he could explain what he's on about (even to himself)?

Nah.

As one of lifes great achievers who apparently rose to the rank of private in some army? It is really good that you show so much compassion for the lesser people on here.

 

[ViolentPanda]

Becky hope that helps...
VP once again makes his position Clear as mud.

Just following your bold example.

 

[ViolentPanda]

As one of lifes great achievers who apparently rose to the rank of private in some army? It is really good that you show so much compassion for the lesser people on here.

Sententious little busybody, aren't you?

As well as you being a joke, like.

 

[brasicritique]

I won't take any lessons from someone who can't even construct a sentence properly.

Thank you you expose yourself for what you really are.This is because of your white middleclass background which means your ego has been constucted in a way in which it means does not allow you to have conversations with people from different social and racial backgrounds.Great comment as it really does expose the fact that there is no difference between your mentality , and that of a neo-con, tory grandee etc etc as you are using an artificial social, racial and hierarchical construct from which to conduct your discousre. ( Even looks like balders does with the lesser poster tip, thats a shame)

I assume he doesn't have the brain cells to explain, but I am not going to waste time trying to decipher his ramblings

Well you posted twice on that exact topic instsead of trying to contribute to the issue at hand.Now that is sad.guinessdrinker? more like intellectual brewers droop

Here's a piece of advice: never come to the keyboard when you've been drinking.

Heres a piece of advice nino; get a life full stop. Then you might be able to comment on the issues that affect the lives of millions with some real insight .

 

[ViolentPanda]

It strikes me as ironic that brasicattack should recommend to someone else that they get a life when he so obviously doesn't have one of his own.

 

[guinnessdrinker]

I assume he doesn't have the brain cells to explain, but I am not going to waste time trying to decipher his ramblings

Well you posted twice on that exact topic instsead of trying to contribute to the issue at hand.Now that is sad.guinessdrinker? more like intellectual brewers droop

I have better things to do that wasting my time on you. you just appear to be a hopeless case. unlike yours, brain has not rotten from drinking.

 

[guinnessdrinker]

It is really good that you show so much compassion for the lesser people on here.

well, you haven't been culled and you've been allowed to have your say. so, yes there is compassion about.