How much evidence is there of long term high level UK paedophile ring?

[Dillinger4]

Coping by distancing, gallows humour, if you don't laugh you'd cry ad nauseam. There's nothing new about that.

Absolutely. Jokes can be a way of talking unpalatable truths. Truths that may not even be realized straight away as truths.

 

[snadge]

~Gothika~ comes to mind, an extremely underated film.

We will be fed ~plebs~ and corpses, nothing of note will change

 

[bluescreen]

It's curious wording.

Looking at the BBC's more detailed report, one can infer that the protection takes several forms - not just taking the child into care, but taking the suspect into custody and perhaps even simply putting the child on the At Risk register

 

[DaveCinzano]

Does anyone know what happened to the dossier which Colin Wallace/Fred Holroyd sent to Downing Street in the early 1980s, entitled ‘Political and Security Implications Regarding the Disclosure of Security Classified Information to Assist in the Investigation of the Allegations Relating to the Kincora Boys Hostel, Belfast’? Neither the Foot book nor Tam Dalyell's (unanswered) Parliamentary question of June 1990 seem particularly clear on the issue.

Did the Hughes Inquiry receive any of the 1970s material on Kincora supplied with it by Wallace? Having had a cursory look through the scan of a photocopy of the 368 page typewritten Hughes Report released under FoI (so not the easiest to search through) I cannot see any mention of Wallace or the dossier in the list of witnesses and evidence at the back.

 

[Dillinger4]

Does anyone know what happened to the dossier which Colin Wallace/Fred Holroyd sent to Downing Street in the early 1980s, entitled ‘Political and Security Implications Regarding the Disclosure of Security Classified Information to Assist in the Investigation of the Allegations Relating to the Kincora Boys Hostel, Belfast’? Neither the Foot book nor Tam Dalyell's (unanswered) Parliamentary question of June 1990 seem particularly clear on the issue.

Did the Hughes Inquiry receive any of the 1970s material on Kincora supplied with it by Wallace? Having had a cursory look through the scan of a photocopy of the 368 page typewritten Hughes Report released under FoI (so not the easiest to search through) I cannot see any mention of Wallace or the dossier in the list of witnesses and evidence at the back.

I read the Paul Foot book recently. It is unclear what happenedd to the Wallace / Holroyd dossier. At different times it has been ignored, lost, found, declared false, unimportant, etc.

IIRC The Hughes Enquiry received the dossier, but wasnt admitted as evidence.

I cant remember exactly. I have the book here i will have a quick look in a bit. Have a vague memory of the dossier being stolen from somewhere secure (possibly the enquiry itself) and then mysteriously reappearing when a fuss was made

 

[DaveCinzano]

I read the Paul Foot book recently. It is unclear what happenedd to the Wallace / Holroyd dossier. At different times it has been ignored, lost, found, declared false, unimportant, etc.

IIRC The Hughes Enquiry received the dossier, but wasnt admitted as evidence.

I cant remember exactly. I have the book here i will have a quick look in a bit. Have a vague memory of the dossier being stolen from somewhere secure (possibly the enquiry itself) and then mysteriously reappearing when a fuss was made

From my quick scan through Foot last night, Wallace was at one point told by the Defence Minister's PS that parts of his correspondence & dossier had been found, copied and sent to Hughes, including ‘Political and Security Implications’ - only for Wallace to discover that this was in fact only an expurgated document/memo with the same title (p334 onwards).

 

[DaveCinzano]

We really need a tag facility so we can more easily track individual posts and threads.

David Barclay, Mr S. Quinn, Major General Len Garrett, Simon Routh, Lord Trefgarne, David Mercier

 

[DaveCinzano]

Lo - an article on the BBC News website today about Kincora cover-ups:

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-northern-ireland-28341109

Plus one from yesterday I missed:

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-northern-ireland-28322972

 

[the button]

We really need a tag facility so we can more easily track individual posts and threads.

David Barclay, Mr S. Quinn, Major General Len Garrett, Simon Routh, Lord Trefgarne, David Mercier

Add Sir Nicholas Fairbairn to that list...

http://www.scotsman.com/news/politi...irbairn-in-child-abuse-scandal-link-1-3474912

 

[Dillinger4]

From my quick scan through Foot last night, Wallace was at one point told by the Defence Minister's PS that parts of his correspondence & dossier had been found, copied and sent to Hughes, including ‘Political and Security Implications’ - only for Wallace to discover that this was in fact only an expurgated document/memo with the same title (p334 onwards).

I have it in front of me now, that's right. That chapter (The Secret State) goes into some depth about the dossier.

The dossier was typed up and sent with a letter to the Prime Ministers Office 1/11/84. No copies were made before it was sent. A note was sent the following day acknowledging receipt of the letter. A note was sent 21/11/84 from David Barclay, the PM's private secretary saying that "Mr Wallace's case has been the subject of the most thorough consideration' ... on Kincora 'Mr Wallace has been given every opportunity to make his views known'.

As the book establishes this is not true as Colin Wallace has been bound by the Official Secrets Act. Colin replies and writes back 14/12/84. The dossier is returned to Wallace / Holroyd. Except the dossier returned was not the file sent. It was a copy, annotated in pencil. They assume that the original has been kept at Downing Street, or passed onto the MoD or others.

Colin's second letter does not receive a reply.

Colin is then asked to appear before representatives of the Hughes Inquiry. Colin does not want to do this as he is bound by the official secrets act. The point of writing to the Prime Minister is to get permission to tell his story. This is clearly not given, as the only reply he gets is that he has had a chance to tell his story, which he hasn't as it would have been illegal due to the official secrets act, and this is why he did not speak to a previous inquiry, the Terry Inquiry.

In addition, the terms of reference of both the Terry Inquiry and the Hughes Inquiry are extremely narrow and do not cover the points that Colin wants to make about a military and intelligence cover up at Kincora. His solution is that if the Prime Minister passed the dossier to to the Inquiry Committee, she would do so as head of the Intelligence Services and provide Colin with the authority to disclose what he knew.

Colin tells the representatives of the Hughes Enquiry that the Prime Ministers Office has copy of the dossier. The committee is then told that the dossier was returned to Wallace / Holroyd. Colin writes to the Prime Minister stating that this is not true, and that they returned a copy and kept the original. To this allegation there is no reply. The Inquiry Committee loses patience with Colin and his official secrets deadlock. Colin wants to talk but cannot find a way to do so legally.

The dossier is then made available to the Hughes Inquiry. However it is not the original but a memorandum dated March 1982, with the same title but different pagination and variations in the text, which Colin recognised as coming not from the bundle sent to the Prime Ministers office but from the material he produced at Wormwood Scrubs in 1982 for his solicitor in response to the request from the RUC for information for the Terry Inquiry.

Colin complains about the dossier made available to the Prime Minister not being made available to the Hughes Inquiry.

Six weeks later, at the end of January 1986, the Hughes Inquiry report was published. A passage in it, seventeen paragraphs long, refers to Colin Wallace.

The report suggests that Colin Wallace was of no interest to them until they received via Fred Holroyd and the Essex police his documents about Kincora, in particular the four page memo dated 8/10/74 which listed Colin's growing concern about Kincora.

...

The dossier was later stolen and returned in mysterious circumstances:

if, in the wake of the Hughes Inquiry, anyone had been in any doubt about which documents did go to the Prime Ministers office, there was at least some proof. There was no doubt that Fred Holroyd had received a copy of the dossier, and it was complete. He handed the copy, stressing the fact that it was the only one in circulation, to Edward Taylor, Tory MP for Southend. He kept it in the most secure place he could find, a locked cupboard in his office in the Norman Shaw buildings, which are reserved for MPs and HoC staff and guarded by Police 24 hours a day. In the first week of April 1986, Mr Taylor decided to consult the file. It had vanished...

Mr Taylor MP kicks up a fuss, reports the theft to the police and and starts writing to the leaders of all parties, that there had been an unexplained burglary in the HoC and if his office wasn't safe, whose was?

The result was dramatic. A fortnight after the loss of the file was reported to the police, and only a day or two after Colin's letters had reached their destination, Teddy Taylor walked into his constituency offices in Nelson Street, Southend, and saw the large red file on his desk. He never resolved the mystery of its disappearance...

That is not quite word for word, I am summarising a lot of it. There is much more in that chapter.

 

[DaveCinzano]

Cheers Dillinger4 - you summarise it more clearly than Foot managed

 

[Barking_Mad]

Former Army Intelligence Officer on Kincora. All roads lead to MI5.

http://www.belfasttelegraph.co.uk/n...ys-exarmy-officer-colin-wallace-30438022.html

 

[scalyboy]

Add Sir Nicholas Fairbairn to that list...

http://www.scotsman.com/news/politi...irbairn-in-child-abuse-scandal-link-1-3474912

Is the list of names mentioned in this article the same as the one that was posted upthread, as a photo/scan?

 

[Betsy]

Add Sir Nicholas Fairbairn to that list...

http://www.scotsman.com/news/politi...irbairn-in-child-abuse-scandal-link-1-3474912

"In 2000 the daughter of a prominent Scottish lawyer, who was never publicly named, alleged Fairbairn was part of a paedophile ring. At the time the claims were angrily rejected by his family. Last night Sir Nicholas’ eldest daughter Charlotte told Scotland on Sunday: “There’s nothing I can say. He’s been dead for 20 years.”

Wonder where she is now?

 

[DaveCinzano]

Here's some of the relevant correspondence from and to Fred Holroyd in connection with Colin Wallace's Kincora documents:

(Covering letter, Holroyrd to Thatcher, 1/11/84)


(List of documents attached to above letter, including first item ‘Political and Security Implications’)


(Response from PM's PS David Barclay to Holroyd, 21/11/84)


(Response by R P Hatfield, General Staff Secretariat 2, MOD, to Holroyd in relation to letter to Lord Trefgarne, 17/3/86)

 

[kenny g]

http://www.belfasttelegraph.co.uk/n...e-all-seemingly-lumped-together-30417218.html is a great article as it puts in context the reports we are now hearing. Pretty much reflects some chats with work mates over the last few days.

 

[free spirit]

good work Dave & Dillinger.

 

[Dillinger4]

I'd stress that Paul Foot goes into a lot of depth in his book about Colin Wallace. It is a first class piece of investigative journalism and really is worth reading, especially in relation to this thread. To anybody who hasn't read it, you should.

 

[ViolentPanda]

I'd stress that Paul Foot goes into a lot of depth in his book about Colin Wallace. It is a first class piece of investigative journalism and really is worth reading, especially in relation to this thread. To anybody who hasn't read it, you should.

As are Lobster's various additions to the narrative.

 

[Quartz]

This thread is profoundly depressing, yet the truth must come out.

 

[ibilly99]

Scallywag "Boys for Questions" is an interesting read.

 

[DaveCinzano]

Nonsense like this - matter-of-fact nonsense tossed out as though providing any kind of evidence or context is beneath them - makes me despair:

 

[laptop]

Nonsense like this - matter-of-fact nonsense tossed out as though any providing any kind of evidence or context is beneath them - makes me despair...

But what would Mossad do with such a collection?

(Though I suppose Shin Bet would have an obvious use for it: blackmailing domestic politicians.)

 

[Bernie Gunther]

Lizard porn.

 

[bluescreen]

I'm idly curious about Icke. He is a thing, regrettably. It was years before I twigged that the lizard thing is probably a fool's mask, allowing him to speak without being taken seriously or sued. People go to his forums for gossip and sometimes he seems to have the real dope. But basically anti-Semitic and weirdly authoritarian while affecting to take an anti-authoritarian stance... I haven't made a serious study and feel contaminated on the rare occasions I go there, but maybe someone else here has looked at it more dispassionately.

 

[free spirit]

I'm idly curious about Icke. He is a thing, regrettably. It was years before I twigged that the lizard thing is probably a fool's mask, allowing him to speak without being taken seriously or sued. People go to his forums for gossip and sometimes he seems to have the real dope. But basically anti-Semitic and weirdly authoritarian while affecting to take an anti-authoritarian stance... I haven't made a serious study and feel contaminated on the rare occasions I go there, but maybe someone else here has looked at it more dispassionately.

David Icke either

A - Fell for all the nonsense the Discordians ever put out there hook line and sinker,

or

B - Is himself a discordian, and deliberately sowing the seeds of confusion and mistrust of authority by fair means or foul as is the discordian way.

or some mix of he 2, which would mean he was unaware of the entire discordian fictional origins of the illuminati legend etc. but is just naturally inclined to their way of thinking anyway on the validity of viewing truth as something that can be altered by changing the public perception of the situation. Ie convince enough people that black actually is white, and eventually it comes to pass that white becomes known as black and vice versa.

 

[angelraven]

I'm idly curious about Icke. He is a thing, regrettably. It was years before I twigged that the lizard thing is probably a fool's mask, allowing him to speak without being taken seriously or sued. People go to his forums for gossip and sometimes he seems to have the real dope. But basically anti-Semitic and weirdly authoritarian while affecting to take an anti-authoritarian stance... I haven't made a serious study and feel contaminated on the rare occasions I go there, but maybe someone else here has looked at it more dispassionately.

On a similar, though not precisely relevant note I have been idly curious about allegations of satanism. I haven't seen that mentioned much (if at all) on urban75 forums - though I only came to them recently - but elsewhere I have heard tell of allegations from at least one of Savile's victims that they saw him in robes and mask officiating in some kind of ritual. This has made me wonder if the "Satanic Panic" of the late 80s / early 90s was quite as overblown as people have generally assumed, or if there might not have been a kernel of truth to it.
I mean, as a professional psychologist it strikes me that if one is a serial violent child molestor, perhaps even child murderer (and as we know there are plenty of allegations of kids being thrown off boats etc.), then with the inversion of typical morality required to have that lifestyle, perhaps in one's head it is not all that far to satanism. Perhaps satanism might even provide a way of legitimating what one is doing (humans do seem to have this weird need to do this). Just throwing the idea out there really. In fact I'm assuming it is likely to have been addressed already somewhere on these forums and would appreciate a pointer for the n00b.

 

[Libertad]

In fact I'm assuming it is likely to have been addressed already somewhere on these forums and would appreciate a pointer for the n00b.

You could use the search function, top rhs. of this page.

 

[angelraven]

You could use the search function, top rhs. of this page.

I just did. It wasn't much help. A lot of people saying that SRA is a load of nonsense, without really saying why. I mean, take Ian Watkins for example, it hardly seems implausible that he is a satanist. Or an older case: I guess what really got me thinking about this was reading up for the first time on the 'Beast of Jersey', Edward Paisnel - a guy who clearly thought of himself as possessing some kind of demonic power.

I guess I'm just trying to work out where to draw the line now between conspiracy and conspiracy theory, because the boundary seems to have shifted quite a bit over the last couple of years...

 

[DaveCinzano]

I mean, take Ian Watkins for example, it hardly seems implausible that he is a satanist.

Speaking as “a professional psychologist” why exactly do you believe that it “hardly seems implausible” that Ian Watkins is a satanist, in lieu of any actual evidence?