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How much evidence is there of long term high level UK paedophile ring?

Oh sure, let's all haze the noob. Very mature. I apologise for the slight derail to the thread, and I hope that more experienced members can keep it on topic. Back to lurking now. Peace out.

Absolutely no hazing at all; I'm sorry if it came across that way . I did take care to say that you had answered the question. So I'm really not sure why you're being simultaneously so aggressive ('very mature') and defensive ('I apologise for the slight derail'). Anyway don't go back to lurking...stick with it and enjoy.

Cheers - Louis MacNeice
 
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Here's a new thread created specifically for the Satanic Ritual Abuse stuff.

http://www.urban75.net/forums/threads/satanic-ritual-abuse-fundie-horseshit-or-troof.325799/

May I suggest again that it would be good to deal with this potentially contentious subject separately from this mostly excellent thread.

Could also potentially use the separate thread quoted above to talk about Icke/Project Monarch stuff or any tenuous attempts to link e.g. S&M to satanism, if people really must bring that stuff up, again to keep it out of this thread.
 
Clinical, experimental, social, based in health care practice, working in HE, researched focused; each of these would have a substantial impact on the skills and knowledge that a professional psychologist would bring to the discussion. In other words, once the original poster brought it up, it became a legitimate question...one that has since been answered.

Cheers - Louis MacNeice

I guess. But the post struck me as a musing not as something aiming at being an evidenced-based claim, so although the position of psychologist may have been used to give more authority than is usually accorded to psychological musings, usually described derogatively as armchair, I didn't see it as more than that. Anyway, I don't want to derail.
 
For the reason I stated above, viz., that it would have provided a way of internally legitimating his horrendous pattern of behaviour. The main alternative explanation for why people do such obviously evil things is that they dissociate from the part of themselves that does it. This is often the case (it's pretty typical with war crimes such as those that occurred in the Holocaust, for example) but I'm not sure that it applies to everyone. Cases such as Watkins and Savile seem to have built so much of their lives around the evil that they did that it seems to me rather to have been an integral part of their selves. Perhaps they saw a religious dimension to that, perhaps not. But as I say, to me it is not at first glance implausible that there might have been a religious dimension.

You're engaging in a moral argument - you're judging their behaviour as evil. Now, as a punter, that's fair enough, but as a psychologist surely you should be looking beyond moral labels and asking "what enabled them to commit such horrendous acts?".
It's all very well positing that perhaps they were Satanists (and as a Catholic, Savile would probably have been inculcated with enough dogma to be able to visualise his acts as anti-catholicism), but labels like "evil" and "Satanist" excuse those who the labels are used on. They effectively say "this person's actions lie beyond any norm of behaviour that we can measure or treat".

In the case of Savile the allegations may well be down to dodgy 'recovered memories'...

There's very little to do with recovered memories with regard to the Savile case. A significant minority of testimony is reiteration of testimony given at the time of abuse - no need to use bogus psychotherapeutic techniques to "recover" memories from victims.

...but in the case of Watkins there seems a bit more to it: allegations that girls were persuaded (or perhaps just offered) to do 'satanic stuff' for him; that a satanist organisation made threats against Peaches Geldof for naming the two women sentenced alongside him; and just the general imagery that he used, including his band name (I realise that this is pretty common with rock musicians though!).

Watkins was and is a poseur. He liked to tout himself as more evil than Crowley, but with the dilettante's usual error of knowing so little about Crowley as to not realise that "The Most Evil Man in Britain" wasn't a label Crowley attached to himself, it was one bestowed on him by a tabloid. He was and is attracted to the "spectacle" of the occult, but not (as far as can be established through any extant organisation) to the practice of any occult ideology.

Turning your question on its head, do you think that it is implausible that Watkins is a satanist? If so, why? Do you believe there is no such thing as satanists?

I certainly don't believe that all, or even most child abuse cases involve satanism, or something like it; but I do think it might be worth asking whether it is genuinely a factor in some of these cases, rather than assuming that the allegations are always invented.

We need answers to several separate questions, first and foremost:
What is a Satanist?
A classic Satanist is exactly what the label implies - an inverted Christian. Someone who rebels against Christianity by inverting its' customs and practices with blasphemous intent, often for religious gratification. Most of the sexual symbolism and practice in Satamism is with regard to the blasphemy, not primarily for the sake of personal gratification.
A LaVeyan Satanist is, on the other hand, generally someone who is using the idea of Satanism, and the practice of self-actualisation, to manufacture reasons for indulging in quasi-blasphemous behaviour and sexual behaviour that the practicing individuals see as "outside the norm", hence a lot of LaVey's disciples engage in swinging and bisexualism at the temple, but not at home. We also see this sort of "decadent" behaviour in some non-Satanic occult groupings - it's basically occultism as an excuse for hedonism, most often employed by middle class and middle-aged people thrill-seeking.
Then we have the Benelists, who draw their archetype of "the adversary" from Gnostic principles. For them Satan isn't coterminous with Jehovah, Satan is Rex Mundi - the king of the world. They see no need for the sort of hocus pocus or invert Christianity, because their worship is more straightforwardly analogous to standard deity worship - prayer and ceremony that doesn't require having sex with children or making burnt offerings.

So what we're mostly seeing when we're talking about "Satanic" abuse, is abuse dressed up in occult clothing, given a mask as a means of justifying the behaviour to the perpetrator.
 
There's an awful lot of ground to cover between the generalised claim above and the specific claim that ‘it's not implausible’ that Ian Watkins was a satanist. As I asked before, what evidence to fit the latter into the former do you have?

After all, I could note that it's not implausible that Ian Watkins is left-handed and a vegetarian. I have no special knowledge of what his dominant side is or nutritional preferences are, but as a keen reader of stuff on the internet I note also that Jack the Ripper, Benjamin Netanyahu, the Boston Strangler and Jimmy Savile's close friend Uri Geller are all reputed to have been left-handed - and I am sure we can think of a certain notable Austrian with a meat-free diet.

But seeing as I have neither defined ‘left-handed’ or ‘vegetarian’ nor suggested why either might be relevant, it's all just sand in the desert.
Is now the time to admit to being a lefthanded, vegetarian..? :oops::(
 
Yes, the story has been turning up all over the place for the past week. Hale is reasonably credible, too.
This story pretty much confirms for me the original question this thread was based on.

Combined with the multiple other stories about special branch taking the local police dossier in Rochdale on Cyril Smith, and intimidating Naypic staff, and reports in the Guardian recently about senior police officers being afraid for their careers if they attempted to tackle these abuses, and everything else on this thread.... I can't see any other conclusion other than that yes there was a high level establishment plot to at least cover up for these highly placed paedophiles.
 
rhodes boyson and kieth joseph again. With peter morrison as well it seems thatcher had a gobsmacking number of proven and strongly alleged child rapists within her inner circle. Plus regular visits from saville and some of the other names doing the rounds. Very nasty smell coming from the Thatcher government..

The sexual dynamics of those cabinets must be fascinating for cod-psychologists. There was often talk at the time of her school matron like attractiveness to male colleagues. I may be completely wrong, but hearing about the fag system and use of sexual abuse as a form of control in the public school system at the time it is interesting to consider that for some of her colleagues it appears Government was just a progression from their previous experiences. And at the helm, the daughter of a child molesting small town burgher.
 
The sexual dynamics of those cabinets must be fascinating for cod-psychologists. There was often talk at the time of her school matron like attractiveness to male colleagues. I may be completely wrong, but hearing about the fag system and use of sexual abuse as a form of control in the public school system at the time it is interesting to consider that for some of her colleagues it appears Government was just a progression from their previous experiences. And at the helm, the daughter of a child molesting small town burgher.


I think ultra authoritarian hang and flog em right wing types must be viewed with suspicion as they are clearly over compensating for something. Saying that there are lifestyle paedophiles who use other guises, look at Rolf Harris, Gary Glitter etc, even paedos who pose as lettuce eating, hush puppy wearing Guardian reader types. Devils come in many forms.

God knows how bad it was in previous times.
 
rhodes boyson and kieth joseph again. With peter morrison as well it seems thatcher had a gobsmacking number of proven and strongly alleged child rapists within her inner circle. Plus regular visits from saville and some of the other names doing the rounds. Very nasty smell coming from the Thatcher government.

Courtesy of "Roger Grenville" over on Bone's blog...

From a speech by Margaret Thatcher at National Children’s Home (George Thomas Society Lecture) in January 1990 at the Cafe Royal:-
‘It is a great privilege to be invited to deliver the inaugural lecture of a society founded by the National Children’s Home, especially one concerned with tackling child abuse but when that society bears the name of George Thomas, it is also for me a great pleasure and a very great honour.
George Thomas is admired and loved throughout this country. As Mr. Speaker, his voice became known in every home. His life has been dedicated to the service of people and especially, through the National Children’s Home, to children. He has never ceased to proclaim the importance of Christian values in family life and there have been times when that has taken quite some courage.
George has always believed that children must come first because children are our most sacred trust. They also hold the key to our future in a very practical sense. It will be their ideas and their resourcefulness which will help solve such problems as disease, famine and the threats to the environment and it is their ideas and their values which will shape the future character and culture of our nation. We need to do all we can to ensure that children enjoy their childhood against a background of secure and loving family life. That way, they can develop their full potential, grow up into responsible adults and become, in their turn, good parents.’.​

She will eventually be seen as the queen of the paedos.
 
I think ultra authoritarian hang and flog em right wing types must be viewed with suspicion as they are clearly over compensating for something. Saying that there are lifestyle paedophiles who use other guises, look at Rolf Harris, Gary Glitter etc, even paedos who pose as lettuce eating, hush puppy wearing Guardian reader types. Devils come in many forms.

God knows how bad it was in previous times.

The bizarre aspect of this appears to be that the hang and flog em right wing types actually got off on hanging and flogging. It was as simple as that. They wanted their sexual tastes replicated in the criminal justice system.

I agree about the lettuce eating aspect though. I can remember a very dubious type wearing Rohan walking gear at a party speaking in vehement defence of his matey a headmaster of a special school who was being tried, and was eventually convicted, for molesting his pupils. I was young at the time, but can remember the conversation going off course as it started to become apparent he wasn't too concerned if the fellow was guilty, but rather didn't believe his activities should be a crime.
 

Some stuff in there about public servants feeling unable to speak due to the Official Secrets Act. Passed in 1989, a few years after these allegations started to surface in numbers. Call me paranoid but I'm wondering if the drafting of that act, and in particular the removal of the public interest defence, was done in an entirely disinterested way - especially given all the shenanigans at the Home Office.
 

As Hencke says on his blog....

The fact that MPs want to hear this [audio recording of the Dover customs official claiming he saw the former tory minister on one of Russell Tricker's paedo VTs] should mean that the police will have take this latest claim seriously as they will have to decide whether to hand over the tape to the new child abuse inquiry, summon the customs officer to give evidence to Parliament or press the police to follow up this incident properly.
 
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