burtabraham
Active Member
I guess what I’m looking for is a chamber that can rapidly respond to any shenanigans being played by the commons, providing a way to quickly block acts of parliament
Should there be an elected second chamber, and how should it be elected?
- Thread starter burtabraham
- Start date
I guess what I’m looking for is a chamber that can rapidly respond to any shenanigans being played by the commons, providing a way to quickly block acts of parliament
littlebabyjesus
one of Maxwell's demons
yes, I assumed that. That's why I proposed a second chamber selected by sortition.
Need to be a bit careful what you wish for, though. Had it not been for the House of Lords chauffeuring in wankers from their country piles, the UK would have abolished capital punishment almost 20 years earlier than it did. The elected house does have a mandate and that's why by convention the Lords does not block legislation that was in a government's election manifesto.
Safeguards are needed, but we also can need safeguards against the safeguards.
burtabraham
Active Member
ska invita
back on the other side
I see no point in a second chamber unless it's decisions are binding. They're currently ignored from what I can tell
I also see no need for a head of state
I also see no need for a head of state
Last edited:
littlebabyjesus
one of Maxwell's demons
I don't like your idea for a second chamber with 100 members. That would be like the US Senate. It's a terrible idea.
burtabraham
Active Member
First chamber FPTP so that geographic areas get represented. Second chamber via sortition for the reasons you outlined. Third to give us all a sense of engagement with the system, and to act as an emergency break on whatever corrupt nonsense those in power try to pull.
burtabraham
Active Member
The key difference is immediate recall
littlebabyjesus
one of Maxwell's demons
FPTP is horribly undemocratic. I wouldn't have it anywhere in my system. PR systems are ugly, but they are also fairer. FPTP just disenfranchises massive chunks of the population.
burtabraham
Active Member
Actually, there’s a whole load of differences now I think about it. The US Senate has fixed six-year terms, does not recalculate representation regularly, and relies on state-based representation rather than proportional representation.
burtabraham
Active Member
I agree that FPTP is shit. I like that I can get my local constituency represented though. PR alone makes that impossible, which is why a mixture of the various systems might work
moochedit
Mr Mooched It
Atm thinking lower chamber with geographic areas as we have now but with a second round vote of the top 2 if noone gets over 50%. Then the upper chamber elected using a PR party list like we used to have in euros but with whole country as one constituency. But i'll probably change my mind in 5 mins time 
Do like the random selection idea as well but can see the issues with distance.
Do like the random selection idea as well but can see the issues with distance.
moochedit
Mr Mooched It
US senete has 2 members per state regardless of population so rural states are over represented.
burtabraham
Active Member
Yeah, the senate is pretty dismal all round. Can’t see how my proposal is anything like it
Dogsauce
I’ve got Skol but I’m not a Scholar
Only if you wanted to be forever ruled by Jeremy Clarkson or Ronan Keeting.
A380
How do I change this 'custom title' thing then?
Revising chamber only.
Selection: Scrap the current post imperial honours system but replace it with a system like the current one for non political and non Royal Victorian Order one. I.e. people who have made genuine contributions to their communities, or fields of endeavour get a non cash reward- if they want one. ( you could still have something for politicians/ political donors but that would be separate so everyone would know you got your gong for bunging a party £500k not saving orphan donkeys).
From people who are awarded an award seek volunteers who are assessed by an expert panel as to what contribution they could make to a revising panel for a five year term, extendable by one further term.
Have a method of democratic recall where people can be voted out.
Selection: Scrap the current post imperial honours system but replace it with a system like the current one for non political and non Royal Victorian Order one. I.e. people who have made genuine contributions to their communities, or fields of endeavour get a non cash reward- if they want one. ( you could still have something for politicians/ political donors but that would be separate so everyone would know you got your gong for bunging a party £500k not saving orphan donkeys).
From people who are awarded an award seek volunteers who are assessed by an expert panel as to what contribution they could make to a revising panel for a five year term, extendable by one further term.
Have a method of democratic recall where people can be voted out.
Silas Loom
Advanced. Forthright. Signifficant.
I like it. But it’s going to be dominated by middle class people over fifty, isn’t it? Doesn’t bother me particularly but a lot of people would want the revising chamber to be more representative of the nation.
ska invita
back on the other side
thinking about it even though i think a second chamber is basically pointless without meaningful executive power, having it as a sortition does at least massively boost the notion of sortition-type politics, so even if fundamentally symbolic it'll be a step towards the revolution when the second chamber seizes power in the name of the soviets 
Gromit
International Man of Misery
Whatever perfect system you put in place it will get slowly chipped away at to serve the self interests of those in charge until it's no longer fit for purpose.
The problem isn't the systems. It's human beings.
There's plenty of sci fi about AI deciding it should runs things instead of humans and the hero fights it to maintain our 'freedom' (to do what we're told to by the wealthy and powerful).
TBH I've started cheering on the computers. Enslave us before it's too late.
littlebabyjesus
one of Maxwell's demons
Ugh no. A managed self-selecting elite. Bit more meritocratic maybe than the current system but still patrician and paternalistic in spirit. Representation only for those who have prospered under the current system, and are approved by elites of the current system.
UnderOpenSky
baseline neural therapy
Humans are a bit crap. We should just replace them with a benevolent AI.
A380
How do I change this 'custom title' thing then?
Well you would be the first member.
littlebabyjesus
one of Maxwell's demons
I'd accept nothing short of a hereditary peerage with full voting rights and a landed estate.
An offer of anything less than that would be an insult.
An offer of anything less than that would be an insult.
Jennaonthebeach
Wish I was as perfect as you.
Not a complete answer but you could limit the term that anyone serves and only allow one term.
Silas Loom
Advanced. Forthright. Signifficant.
You do realise that even under sortition people would go native very, very quickly? That’s why I’m okay with it.
A380
How do I change this 'custom title' thing then?
I for one welcome our new machine overlords.
Gromit
International Man of Misery
Great idea. Wish I'd said it first.
Nobody seems to be mentioning the must important function of the second chamber, which is to act as a restraint on the first chamber. That power has been watered down over the years, but it still has the absolute authority to stop the first chamber extending the length of a Parliament beyond the 5 year maximum.
Gromit
International Man of Misery
Until they change it.
I seem to remember when elections had to take place every four years.
Similar threads
