Should there be an elected second chamber, and how should it be elected?

[burtabraham]

No, but they're not legislating. They are the revising chamber. The lower house is the elected house, with members who form governments who then formulate policies and propose legislation. They are delegates who have been given a mandate to make certain decisions and are held to account for those decisions at elections.

I guess what I’m looking for is a chamber that can rapidly respond to any shenanigans being played by the commons, providing a way to quickly block acts of parliament

 

[littlebabyjesus]

I guess what I’m looking for is a chamber that can rapidly respond to any shenanigans being played by the commons, providing a way to quickly block acts of parliament

yes, I assumed that. That's why I proposed a second chamber selected by sortition.

Need to be a bit careful what you wish for, though. Had it not been for the House of Lords chauffeuring in wankers from their country piles, the UK would have abolished capital punishment almost 20 years earlier than it did. The elected house does have a mandate and that's why by convention the Lords does not block legislation that was in a government's election manifesto.

Safeguards are needed, but we also can need safeguards against the safeguards.

 

[burtabraham]

yes, I assumed that. That's why I proposed a second chamber selected by sortition.

How about a third chamber so we can both get our way?

 

[ska invita]

I see no point in a second chamber unless it's decisions are binding. They're currently ignored from what I can tell

I also see no need for a head of state

 

[littlebabyjesus]

I don't like your idea for a second chamber with 100 members. That would be like the US Senate. It's a terrible idea.

 

[burtabraham]

First chamber FPTP so that geographic areas get represented. Second chamber via sortition for the reasons you outlined. Third to give us all a sense of engagement with the system, and to act as an emergency break on whatever corrupt nonsense those in power try to pull.

 

[burtabraham]

I don't like your idea for a second chamber with 100 members. That would be like the US Senate. It's a terrible idea.

The key difference is immediate recall

 

[littlebabyjesus]

FPTP is horribly undemocratic. I wouldn't have it anywhere in my system. PR systems are ugly, but they are also fairer. FPTP just disenfranchises massive chunks of the population.

 

[burtabraham]

Actually, there’s a whole load of differences now I think about it. The US Senate has fixed six-year terms, does not recalculate representation regularly, and relies on state-based representation rather than proportional representation.

 

[burtabraham]

FPTP is horribly undemocratic. I wouldn't have it anywhere in my system. PR systems are ugly, but they are also fairer. FPTP just disenfranchises massive chunks of the population.

I agree that FPTP is shit. I like that I can get my local constituency represented though. PR alone makes that impossible, which is why a mixture of the various systems might work

 

[moochedit]

Atm thinking lower chamber with geographic areas as we have now but with a second round vote of the top 2 if noone gets over 50%. Then the upper chamber elected using a PR party list like we used to have in euros but with whole country as one constituency. But i'll probably change my mind in 5 mins time

Do like the random selection idea as well but can see the issues with distance.

 

[moochedit]

Actually, there’s a whole load of differences now I think about it. The US Senate has fixed six-year terms, does not recalculate representation regularly, and relies on state-based representation rather than proportional representation.

US senete has 2 members per state regardless of population so rural states are over represented.

 

[burtabraham]

US senete has 2 members per state regardless of population so rural states are over represented.

Yeah, the senate is pretty dismal all round. Can’t see how my proposal is anything like it

 

[Dogsauce]

There was a book which suggested politicians should be fitted with an explosive necklace. Once their popularity rating fell below a given point the necklace would explode, removing their head.

It's a good idea IMO

Only if you wanted to be forever ruled by Jeremy Clarkson or Ronan Keeting.

 

[A380]

Revising chamber only.

Selection: Scrap the current post imperial honours system but replace it with a system like the current one for non political and non Royal Victorian Order one. I.e. people who have made genuine contributions to their communities, or fields of endeavour get a non cash reward- if they want one. ( you could still have something for politicians/ political donors but that would be separate so everyone would know you got your gong for bunging a party £500k not saving orphan donkeys).

From people who are awarded an award seek volunteers who are assessed by an expert panel as to what contribution they could make to a revising panel for a five year term, extendable by one further term.

Have a method of democratic recall where people can be voted out.

 

[Silas Loom]

Revising chamber only.

Selection: Scrap the current post imperial honours system but replace it with a system like the current one for non political and non Royal Victorian Order one. I.e. people who have made genuine contributions to their communities, or fields of endeavour get a non cash reward- if they want one. ( you could still have something for politicians/ political donors but that would be separate so everyone would know you got your gong for bunging a party £500k not saving orphan donkeys).

From people who are awarded an award seek volunteers who are assessed by an expert panel as to what contribution they could make to a revising panel for a five year term, extendable by one further term.

Have a method of democratic recall where people can be voted out.

I like it. But it’s going to be dominated by middle class people over fifty, isn’t it? Doesn’t bother me particularly but a lot of people would want the revising chamber to be more representative of the nation.

 

[ska invita]

thinking about it even though i think a second chamber is basically pointless without meaningful executive power, having it as a sortition does at least massively boost the notion of sortition-type politics, so even if fundamentally symbolic it'll be a step towards the revolution when the second chamber seizes power in the name of the soviets

 

[Gromit]

First past the post? Proportional Representation? Workers Councils with immediately-recallable representatives? Random selection via coin toss? Or maybe a Britain’s Got Talent-style dance contest?

My serious answer is PR, with people able to switch their vote at any time, and the distribution of seats being recalculated each month.

Whatever perfect system you put in place it will get slowly chipped away at to serve the self interests of those in charge until it's no longer fit for purpose.

The problem isn't the systems. It's human beings.

There's plenty of sci fi about AI deciding it should runs things instead of humans and the hero fights it to maintain our 'freedom' (to do what we're told to by the wealthy and powerful).

TBH I've started cheering on the computers. Enslave us before it's too late.

 

[littlebabyjesus]

Revising chamber only.

Selection: Scrap the current post imperial honours system but replace it with a system like the current one for non political and non Royal Victorian Order one. I.e. people who have made genuine contributions to their communities, or fields of endeavour get a non cash reward- if they want one. ( you could still have something for politicians/ political donors but that would be separate so everyone would know you got your gong for bunging a party £500k not saving orphan donkeys).

From people who are awarded an award seek volunteers who are assessed by an expert panel as to what contribution they could make to a revising panel for a five year term, extendable by one further term.

Have a method of democratic recall where people can be voted out.

Ugh no. A managed self-selecting elite. Bit more meritocratic maybe than the current system but still patrician and paternalistic in spirit. Representation only for those who have prospered under the current system, and are approved by elites of the current system.

 

[UnderOpenSky]

Humans are a bit crap. We should just replace them with a benevolent AI.

 

[A380]

Ugh no. A managed self-selecting elite. Bit more meritocratic maybe than the current system but still patrician and paternalistic in spirit. Representation only for those who have prospered under the current system, and are approved by elites of the current system.

Well you would be the first member.

 

[littlebabyjesus]

I'd accept nothing short of a hereditary peerage with full voting rights and a landed estate.

An offer of anything less than that would be an insult.

 

[Jennaonthebeach]

something elected on a form of PR has some attractions, but many forms of PR put too much power in party central offices to draw up a party list, and works against independent candidates, so would it (still) end up with a mix of has-beens and big donors? party list type PR fails the fifth of tony benn's five essential questions of democracy - "How do we get rid of you?"

Not a complete answer but you could limit the term that anyone serves and only allow one term.

 

[Silas Loom]

Ugh no. A managed self-selecting elite. Bit more meritocratic maybe than the current system but still patrician and paternalistic in spirit. Representation only for those who have prospered under the current system, and are approved by elites of the current system.

You do realise that even under sortition people would go native very, very quickly? That’s why I’m okay with it.

 

[A380]

Humans are a bit crap. We should just replace them with a benevolent AI.

I for one welcome our new machine overlords.

 

[Gromit]

Humans are a bit crap. We should just replace them with a benevolent AI.

Great idea. Wish I'd said it first.

 

[rasputin]

Nobody seems to be mentioning the must important function of the second chamber, which is to act as a restraint on the first chamber. That power has been watered down over the years, but it still has the absolute authority to stop the first chamber extending the length of a Parliament beyond the 5 year maximum.

 

[Gromit]

The problem with benevolent AI is who decides what is benevolent when programming the AI?
What data goes in to teach it. Data from humans? I see an immediate problem there.

 

[Gromit]

Nobody seems to be mentioning the must important function of the second chamber, which is to act as a restraint on the first chamber. That power has been watered down over the years, but it still has the absolute authority to stop the first chamber extending the length of a Parliament beyond the 5 year maximum.

Until they change it.
I seem to remember when elections had to take place every four years.

 

[moochedit]

The upper house should consist of all 518 point urbs. Lower house abolished