Hamas/Israel conflict: news and discussion

[teqniq]

Anybody who thinks that Israel would actually admit responsibility for the pager bombs is either exceedingly naive or stupid or both. Plausible deniability etc. But likewise anyone who considers this to be a precision attack particularly when the pagers exploded in public places with many uninvolved people around is clearly having a laugh. Particularly when you also consider their precision attacks on hospitals, schools and tents.

 

[Larry O'Hara]

An org being penetrated to this extent is funny.

Not all of the consequences will be funny, but the act itself, the inguinity, the incompetence and the hubris, that's funny.

It is technically impressive I will grant you that.

So should Hezbollah demolish the Knesset/IDF/Mossad HQs you will find that equally hilarious will you?

Because quite frankly many in the Middle East and elsewhere would

 

[Spymaster]

It is technically impressive I will grant you that.

So should Hezbollah demolish the Knesset/IDF/Mossad HQs you will find that equally hilarious will you?

Because quite frankly many in the Middle East and elsewhere would

Many on these boards would.

 

[Wilf]

IIRC there was a lot of horror expressed over the attacks and references to them as terrorism, but also tempered by reminders to stay rational and not to let the spectacular and barbaric nature of October 7th cause us to lose sight of the suffering inflicted to Palestinians on a daily basis, and there was also anxieties expressed over what Israeli response would mean for Palestinians and the region. Meanwhile you were banging the drum for anything but inchoate rage and demand for ruthless vengeance as hypocritical far-left terrorist-loving anti-Semitism.

Given less than a year later we have the complete desolation and destruction of North Gaza, a death toll of up to 200,000 Palestinians and rising, and almost everyone in Gaza displaced with the risk of the war expanding into Lebanon - with very real risks of it mushrooming into a regional or even global conflict if it drags the US into a direct conflict with Iran - I think the mainstream response of posters on this thread has aged rather better than your response at the time.

I only dip into this thread from time to time, mainly out of a depressive sense of inevitability about the whole thing. But from my limited forays, I agree that Urban's discussion has been pretty measured. It's got ugly from time to time, but given the horrors involved in this conflict, the allegiances people hold on both sides, it's been as measured as could be expected.

 

[TopCat]

It is technically impressive I will grant you that.

So should Hezbollah demolish the Knesset/IDF/Mossad HQs you will find that equally hilarious will you?

Because quite frankly many in the Middle East and elsewhere would

I would raise a glass

 

[Bingoman]

This will end well

Cleary not

 

[Wilf]

I only dip into this thread from time to time, mainly out of a depressive sense of inevitability about the whole thing. But from my limited forays, I agree that Urban's discussion has been pretty measured. It's got ugly from time to time, but given the horrors involved in this conflict, the allegiances people hold on both sides, it's been as measured as could be expected.

.... the other thing is that Urban's spikier moments haven't all been merely left v right spats. A couple of the more heated battles have been anarchists not so much supporting Israel as opposing Hamas and Hezbollah (and those on here who might be seen as uncritical of them).

 

[Pickman's model]

Cleary not

 

[agricola]

This will end well

the only man in the world likely to be sacked before Dyche

 

[PTK]

Oh my. More carnage.

Exploding walkie-talkies kill 14 and injure at least 450 in new attacks across Lebanon​

Lebanon pager attack latest: Exploding walkie-talkies kill 14 and injure at least 450

At least three people are reported to have died in the latest blasts, a day after thousands of pagers exploded across Lebanon.

www.bbc.co.uk

 

[Gramsci]

Israel is well armed military power. With no lack of support from US when it comes to supplying military hardware.

Plenty of capability to defend itself.

It really doesn't have an excuse to launch terrorist style attacks in another country.

 

[planetgeli]

It really doesn't have an excuse to launch terrorist style attacks in another country.

This is obviously a very deep, moral, philosophical as well as political question.

I'm afraid the answer is BN doesn't give a fuck. And the world will watch on with non-binding UN resolutions, and some posters on here will find themselves making excuses for cheering it on.

 

[Spymaster]

This is obviously a very deep, moral, philosophical as well as political question.

I'm afraid the answer is BN doesn't give a fuck. And the world will watch on with non-binding UN resolutions, and some posters on here will find themselves making excuses for cheering it on.

Although nobody whatsoever has cheered it on so far.

 

[Mr.Bishie]

Give it fucking up.

 

[tim]

Israel is well armed military power. With no lack of support from US when it comes to supplying military hardware.

Plenty of capability to defend itself.

It really doesn't have an excuse to launch terrorist style attacks in another country.

Israel clearly wasn't capable of defending itself last October. Netanyahu faces a lot of internal challenges because of that and because of his previous record of corruption and keen to keep the conflict going as long as possible. An escalation of the conflict won't do Trump's prospects of reelection much harm either.

 

[Gramsci]

Israel clearly wasn't capable of defending itself last October. Netanyahu faces a lot of internal challenges because of that and because of his previous record of corruption and keen to keep the conflict going as long as possible. An escalation of the conflict won't do Trump's prospects of reelection much harm either.

I said capability.

Whether they use it well is another issue.

 

[Gramsci]

Inside Story ( Al Jazeera doc show) on the attack. Always worth a watch they have academics rather than politicians.

What I got from this I didnt know before is:

Lebanon has internal problems. Economic problems and a lot of division. This attack has increased division within Lebanon. Not everyone in Lebanon wants a war with Israel

Maybe that was one of the reasons for an attack like this. The commentator said, in a country with so many internal problems., this attack has heightened peoples anxiety. The indiscriminate nature of the attack across the country has had psychological effect on the whole population.

Its arguable imo that this was intentional. Part of the attack was to help destabilise the country.

The attack has left Hezbollah weakened. But it has to reply to this attack for its own credibility.

What I also got from the programme is the lack of US pressure. And that Israel as the American on show said treat US as the junior partner. Which US allows it to do. It should be the other way around. As an American this makes him angry.

As he said the attack took place day after US officials left Israel after talks. He said that has been typical of way Israel has treated its special relationship with USA

The American said the US wanted to de escalate the situation. The way is to get ceasefire in Gaza then hopefully talks about Israel and Hezbollah agreeing an end to these hostilities.

Comes across the US are prepared to do this. But Israel will not agree ceasefire in Gaza

Commentators said they did not think Iran wants all out war. Iran will support non state groups but its not up for full on war.

Get impression Israel knew what it was doing. And the setting off of the bombs like this was part of plan.

Still as the commentators say its not that easy to predict what will happen

One scenario is that this leaves Hezbollah weakened. It does not have capability for full out war with a heavily armed state. Not everyone in Lebanon is going to support that either.

The present situation in Lebanon is so dire that elections coming up may be deferred.

All in all Israel is able to do what it likes. US aren't going to reign them in.

If this goes badly it may affect the US election

 

[agricola]

This is obviously a very deep, moral, philosophical as well as political question.

I'm afraid the answer is BN doesn't give a fuck. And the world will watch on with non-binding UN resolutions, and some posters on here will find themselves making excuses for cheering it on.

Sorry if this is me repeating myself but whether or not BN does or does not give a fuck is (probably) increasingly irrelevant. His government is burning relations with most of the world whilst giving the few nations who remain friendly absolutely nothing positive in return, and plenty of negatives.

This wouldn't be sustainable for any country, never mind one in their strategic situation - even North Korea helps its friends.

 

[gosub]

The fact that Mossad have managed to pull this off twice in quick succession must have Hezbollah running around like headless chickens wondering what else is booby trapped.

Think they had to do the second in short order after the first..given the the nature of what was done...won't be a piece of Hezbollah comms equipment that won't have been taken apart by the weekend

 

[CH1]

Gramsci go back to 1983 and American troops were holding the ring between Lebanese Christian Falangists supporters of Israel and Lebanese moslems allied to Syrian President Hafiz-al Asad (father of the present Asad).
President Asad deployed suicide bombers, who killed 241 US servicement and forced the US to withdraw.
I have read that this was a major contributory factor for the US invasion of Grenada on 25th October 1983 - which obscured the military defeat of the US withdrawing from Beirut.
The Beirut events are described in this official US history - which looks a bit massaged to me. Milestones in the History of U.S. Foreign Relations - Office of the Historian
Blackhawk down is Blackhawk down - though that debacle, otherwise know as the battle of Masgadishu occurred 10 years after Beirut.

PS Al Jazeerah is being taken off Freeview from 30th September, though will be available on Freeview 251 for internet connected TVs.
The same fate as Talk TV - though surprising the Govt of Qatar don't want to fly the flag on Freeview terrestrial.
Maybe there simply aren't enough viewers?

 

[smokedout]

An org being penetrated to this extent is funny.

Not all of the consequences will be funny, but the act itself, the inguinity, the incompetence and the hubris, that's funny.

Remember when a bunch of blokes with box cutters found a gaping hole in US air defences and managed to launch perhaps the most spectacular attack in history and killed thousands of civilians. Such an embarrassing fuck up for poor America. They sent the F16s off to Russia. Comms completely collapsed. What a laugh we had. Or when Japan thought they could hold out in a war but the Americans has this big massive bomb and boom all over. Hilarious.

You're not with your MOD mates here. To think there is anything funny about this is contemptible, and that the military machine has done this to you, someone I think is probably quite a decent bloke, is one of the reasons many of us opposed it so much.

 

[agricola]

Mr “we don’t interfere in other democracies” has given an exclusive interview in the Mail this morning, slating Keith for not going along with everything that the Israeli government does.

 

[Gramsci]

Lebanon: Exploding Pagers Harmed Hezbollah, Civilians

Thousands of pagers simultaneously exploded across Lebanon and parts of Syria on September 17, 2024, resulting in at least 12 deaths, including at least two children and two health workers, and at least 2,800 injuries, according to Lebanon’s Ministry of Health.

www.hrw.org

Human Rights Watch say investigation of this attack should be done:

“Customary international humanitarian law prohibits the use of booby traps – objects that civilians are likely to be attracted to or are associated with normal civilian daily use – precisely to avoid putting civilians at grave risk and produce the devastating scenes that continue to unfold across Lebanon today. The use of an explosive device whose exact location could not be reliably known would be unlawfully indiscriminate, using a means of attack that could not be directed at a specific military target and as a result would strike military targets and civilians without distinction. A prompt and impartial investigation into the attacks should be urgently conducted.”

Probably why Israel is not confirming it did this. It's on shaky ground for a State to do this.

 

[frogwoman]

Sorry if this is me repeating myself but whether or not BN does or does not give a fuck is (probably) increasingly irrelevant. His government is burning relations with most of the world whilst giving the few nations who remain friendly absolutely nothing positive in return, and plenty of negatives.

This wouldn't be sustainable for any country, never mind one in their strategic situation - even North Korea helps its friends.

I don't understand what's going on in their heads. They're haemmorhaging support in the west. Even Germany has suspended most arms sales and the US has an election soon with prominent members of both parties wanting to reduce the support to Israel. Yet they've decided to launch more attacks? Wtf is wrong with them?

 

[Pickman's model]

Sure some people remember years back someone left a booby-trapped torch outside a barracks in london. Some scout, iirc, found it, it exploded and blinded him. To my mind the injuries and deaths caused by the zionists with booby-trapped pagers and radios are no less atrocious. But the chat about whether this constitutes a war crime is peculiar after nearly a year of war crimes and acts of genocide committed by the zionists in Palestine.

 

[teqniq]

Sure some people remember years back someone left a booby-trapped torch outside a barracks in london. Some scout, iirc, found it, it exploded and blinded him. To my mind the injuries and deaths caused by the zionists with booby-trapped pagers and radios are no less atrocious. But the chat about whether this constitutes a war crime is peculiar after nearly a year of war crimes and acts of genocide committed by the zionists in Palestine.

In this particular instance it would seem to be a case of who is actually responsible. BBC calling it 'technological warfare':

 

[planetgeli]

Sorry if this is me repeating myself but whether or not BN does or does not give a fuck is (probably) increasingly irrelevant.

I think it matters in the short term, at least, if you are a neighbour state under terrorist attack. Which is what the statement refers to.

 

[tim]

In this particular instance it would seem to be a case of who is actually responsible. BBC calling it 'technological warfare':

The BBC are always being criticised by the right for not calling Hamas terrorists. The reason for not using the term is that it is invariably used for the actions of those you dislike; it is not objective.

There's also the terrorist, guerilla, freedom fighter tricotomy.

 

[Boris Sprinkler]

Sure some people remember years back someone left a booby-trapped torch outside a barracks in london. Some scout, iirc, found it, it exploded and blinded him. To my mind the injuries and deaths caused by the zionists with booby-trapped pagers and radios are no less atrocious. But the chat about whether this constitutes a war crime is peculiar after nearly a year of war crimes and acts of genocide committed by the zionists in Palestine.

He was 14. Not sure a scout, another form of British youth paramilitary training group. ETA. Army Cadet - BBC News | UK | TA blast was deliberate attack
Barracks in White city. I remember.

Now by the same logic as Israel has used, he was a legitimate target, no?

 

[TopCat]

The BBC are always being criticised by the right for not calling Hamas terrorists. The reason for not using the term is that it is invariably used for the actions of those you dislike; it is not objective.

There's also the terrorist, guerilla, freedom fighter tricotomy.

Insurgents was the eventual term in Iraq when terrorist wouldn’t stick.