Feminism and the silencing of women

[Manter]

It must be said that I'm only speaking about couples where I've known both people.

Was talking about it with my best mate in the pub the other day and while we acknowledged silencing of women in the home happens in impossible to calculate amounts it wasn't something we recognised from any of our past relationships, our families, etc. General feeling was that our experience of this stuff is that societally it's systemic and embedded; in the house fellas do what they're told.

Really? Women are socialised to avoid conflict, so how many times does your wife roll her eyes and go upstairs, or say ‘oh nevermimd? ’

 

[Steel Icarus]

I don’t think it’s about alphas or twats or abuse. Most women do the emotional labour in a relationship, and take the ‘caring’ role. That includes being an emotional sounding board, absorbing emotion, especially a male partner’s emotion: etc etc etc. My partner is in no way abusive, or a twat, or an ‘alpha’- but I often don’t bother to share emotional stuff I need to think through, or play it down. That’s a deep seated patriarchal assumption that he takes up more emotional space than I do. I remember birthdays, favourite foods, deal with everyone’s emotions, and keep my own needs silent. That’s not, I suspect, unusual.

Thank you, that's very interesting and makes sense.

 

[Steel Icarus]

Really? Women are socialised to avoid conflict, so how many times does your wife roll her eyes and go upstairs, or say ‘oh nevermimd? ’

I'm not going to talk about my relationship on a publicly-visible thread.

 

[Manter]

I'm not going to talk about my relationship on a publicly-visible thread.

It’s a rhetorical question. I’m not expecting frequency analysis and a bar chart with causal factors colour coded

 

[Steel Icarus]

That's not a rhetorical question!

Suffice to say we're going to great lengths to challenge traditional gender roles in many aspects of our relationship, according to what I've read here and seen/assimilated in and from the wider world.

 

[Manter]

That's not a rhetorical question!

Suffice to say we're going to great lengths to challenge traditional gender roles in many aspects of our relationship, according to what I've read here and seen/assimilated in and from the wider world.

 

[Steel Icarus]

I know what one is for heaven's sake. I teach it.

 

[Manter]

I know what one is for heaven's sake. I teach it.

I asked a question for rhetorical effect. It is therefore a rhetorical question. I wasn’t seriously expecting frequency analysis or a ‘number’ . Amazing, huh?

 

[Steel Icarus]

I asked a question for rhetorical effect. It is therefore a rhetorical question. I wasn’t seriously expecting frequency analysis or a ‘number’ . Amazing, huh?

See THAT was a rhetorical question.

 

[Steel Icarus]

I will give you the birthdays thing mind. Fact that all my relatives are dead and my friends don't do cards is neither here nor there - if they were alive/keen on them she'd still be in charge of birthdays.

 

[Pickman's model]

Really? Women are socialised to avoid conflict, so how many times does your wife roll her eyes and go upstairs, or say ‘oh nevermimd? ’

Never and rarely

 

[Manter]

See THAT was a rhetorical question.

I am having to really fight the temptation to just go yeah, whatever, have it your way. Because despite everything, I have been socialised that I should be silent and back down when testosterone starts to lecture me, because, you know, male authority. And I don’t even know you.

 

[Steel Icarus]

I am having to really fight the temptation to just go yeah, whatever, have it your way. Because despite everything, I have been socialised that I should be silent and back down when testosterone starts to lecture me, because, you know, male authority. And I don’t even know you.

Male authority? No. Authority on what a rhetorical question is, perhaps, given my degree is in English and I teach English. I wouldn't dream of claiming authority in much else.

I certainly don't want to silence anyone. But there has to be a way to disagree without it resulting in lines being drawn?

 

[Poot]

Surely since Manter asked the question, she has the authority to say whether it was rhetorical or not.

 

[mango5]

A handful of chaps find this inconceivable so we must be overstating things .
As spanglechick suggested recently, the statistical chance that *more* than a handful of men in our everyday circles (including irl urban circles) are seriously abusive is nauseating yet invisible, unheard and very real.

 

[Pickman's model]

Surely a rhetorical question would be obvious by the answer it would necessarily demand and this one can receive a wide range of responses many of which would undermine the claim it is rhetorical

 

[spanglechick]

Never and rarely

How would you know if she’s rolling her eyes and leaving because she feels like it’s easier not to bother?

 

[Pickman's model]

How would you know if she’s rolling her eyes and leaving because she feels like it’s easier not to bother?

I could not recall such an occurrence so I told her of this thread and asked her and she can't remember it happening either. So not all relationships.

 

[Santino]

NOT ALL MEN

 

[Pickman's model]

NOT ALL MEN

So you got my allusion. Posting all caps doesn't reinforce a point, it makes you look a shouty plonker

 

[Steel Icarus]

NOT ALL MEN

It'd be great if you'd contribute by responding to specific points with your own ideas rather than just go for the cheap shot

 

[Pickman's model]

It'd be great if you'd contribute by responding to specific points with your own ideas rather than just go for the cheap shot

Santino doesn't do ideas

 

[Santino]

It'd be great if you'd contribute by responding to specific points with your own ideas rather than just go for the cheap shot

It'd be great if one single thread on feminism could exist without some men turning the conversation to how they should be explicitly excused from general observations on male behaviour.

 

[Steel Icarus]

It'd be great if one single thread on feminism could exist without some men turning the conversation to how they should be explicitly excused from general observations on male behaviour.

Who has done that? Point me at it. Let me learn

 

[Manter]

Surely a rhetorical question would be obvious by the answer it would necessarily demand and this one can receive a wide range of responses many of which would undermine the claim it is rhetorical

A rhetorical question can have an answer. It can have an obvious answer, a range of answers, and be couched in both the positive and negative. It can come before, after or instead of a statement. Fowler’s (I checked as a result of this conversation) says a question used not to elicit information but as a more striking device as the listener has to reach the conclusion themselves. Not a direct quote- book is upstairs and I am now in bed.

 

[Winot]

A handful of chaps find this inconceivable so we must be overstating things .

I don’t think Si has said that, has he?

 

[Sue]

Sure, you can never completely tell. I'm only going on my own experience. Like I said I'm not friends with any twats. Probably why I don't have many friends. I don't really tolerate wankers and generally don't feel comfortable around very blokey blokes.

And this is kind of the point. I don't have friends who're twats or very blokey blokes either. Except when it turns out they actually are.

If you met the male friend I was talking about earlier, you'd no doubt think he was a great guy. Non-blokey, fun, interesting, good politics. Except he's an absolute controlling fucker when it comes to his partner.

Who's now lost so much confidence in herself that she's pretty much stuck where she is. And why would she ever tell anyone how it is? Who'd believe her when he's generally seen as such a great guy? And why would she want to admit to other people she's spent two decades with someone who's a twat?

I think this shit is not unusual. I know a couple of other women I strongly suspect are in similar situations. How do you know your friends don't have this shit going on in the privacy of their own homes. They'd be very unlikely to tell you if it were.

 

[trashpony]

On a thread about the silencing of women, the last page is two men telling women that they’re wrong and bickering with a third. Not enough rolleyes in the world tbh

 

[Steel Icarus]

So we're at the point where a difference of opinion = silencing?

 

[mango5]

I don’t think Si has said that, has he?

No. He keeps saying that he doesn't recognise the issues in his own circles. It's a variation of NAM which minimises the main points being made and could itself have a silencing effect. There is no useful response to his myopia. I really do hope that he continues to live in this comfortable bubble cos the big picture of everyday womanhood is much nastier outside it.