Feminism and a world designed for men

[Treacle Toes]

I agree. And I think of my hot flushes as power surges!

I do too now that I temper them with black cohosh. I am unstoppable at the minute.

 

[trashpony]

There’s a really old book by John Berger called Ways of Seeing which focuses a lot on the way that the female body is twisted into impossible positions in art to increase the allure of the woman.

 

[Treacle Toes]

My sister went to see a Dr when she started getting hot flushes, really heavy periods every 3 weeks, insane mood swings that she's never had with her periods but was told that it couldn't possibly be the menopause as she was too young. When clearly, that's exactly what it was. She knows her body, has had periods all her adult life and there had been a massive change. But no, too young for that to be happening.

Same thing happened to me. 'No, too young, come back when you haven't had a period for over a year.' Nonsense!

 

[Treacle Toes]

There’s a really old book by John Berger called Ways of Seeing which focuses a lot on the way that the female body is twisted into impossible positions in art to increase the allure of the woman.

I have that.

 

[wayward bob]

I have that.

me too. bet i've never read it though

 

[killer b]

The episode about that in the TV version of Ways of Seeing was interesting - you can watch it (and the rest of the series) here: UbuWeb Film & Video: John Berger - Ways of Seeing, Episode 2: Women in Art (1972)

 

[ElizabethofYork]

There’s a really old book by John Berger called Ways of Seeing which focuses a lot on the way that the female body is twisted into impossible positions in art to increase the allure of the woman.

Reminds me of the old days of page 3, when the model was twisted in such a way that you could see her tits and her arse.

 

[scifisam]

Da Vinci and most artists of his time also often depicted children as bizarre creatures who had the proportions of adult men, just scaled down. It's a window into what strange lives these men - and their male customers - were leading, where women and babies were peripheral beings.

On a more positive point, there's a very persuasive argument that the Venus of Willdendorf, and probably some older African fertility statues, were sculpted by women, because they look like some women would see themselves while looking down at their own bodies, than like you'd sculpt an image of a woman from looking at them from the front (the legs and shoulders are especially tiny compared to the rest).

There’s a really old book by John Berger called Ways of Seeing which focuses a lot on the way that the female body is twisted into impossible positions in art to increase the allure of the woman.

It's weird how influential that book is. I mean, it is an interesting book, but it's very odd. And it was on my university course years ago and was on Jay's too - I was able to lend her my copy.

 

[friendofdorothy]

San Francisco has banned use of facial recognision software by police and other city depts.

San Francisco bans facial recognition in US first

In particular, opponents argued the systems are error prone, particularly when dealing with women or people with darker skin.

 

[friendofdorothy]

It's weird how influential that book is. I mean, it is an interesting book, but it's very odd. And it was on my university course years ago and was on Jay's too - I was able to lend her my copy.

Think it was a TV programme and on school reading lists back in the 70s. It was considered quite revolutionary back then. I considered it sexist even as a young woman and it is notable how few female artists he included (where there any?) - but must admit I haven't looked at it since.

I had to abandon a student project on designing a poster about women in history for lack of available images in 1982. Women's works were notable by their absence in literature /art /history - you had to search really hard until the feminist revolution in publishing in the 80s, with the womens press, virago, pandora etc redressing the inbalance.

 

[friendofdorothy]

I'm not feeling very well right now and and decided to check my peak flow lung thingy - in searching for what is normal/ low. I found this, which not the thing I was looking for but the first thing I found was:

The average total lung capacity of an adult human male is about 6 litres of air.

it does go on to give male/female figures in charts later - but that is at the top in the intro paragraph. Default human again.

 

[Poot]

I think this is where the pay gap, lack of women in senior roles etc makes a difference. Leadership in business, industry, science etc etc is predominantly male. The people who run the journals and universities and research institutes and so on. Where there are a few women, they are not in sufficient numbers, power or at seniority to reshape the world. It takes a certain bravery to sit in a meeting and say ‘well, actually, have we looked at this from a specifically female perspective’. You get looked at with incredulity, dismissed as emotional or angry or single issue.... and that’s from ‘neutral’ men who don’t understand that there is an issue- there are actively hostile men too. But even neutral men- if you ask a question in a meeting from an explicitly female perspective they may well not have the data, it’s going to delay anything, they assume it’s in the mix somewhere etc. You don’t want to be that woman who delays everything and causes problems and everyone misses a financial target, because you are pushing something that you thing is right but is seen as an outlier or ‘not strictly relevant’. It’s a miserable place to be (I’ve done it. After a year and a half of every meeting feeling like a fight, and ending up so stressed I was in the loo sobbing after meetings- women, so emotional, eh?- I resigned)

And that’s before we get into the fact that it’s a man’s world and women who have clawed their way to the top and positions of influence often think and behave in quite a ‘male’ way. It wouldn’t occur to many of them to ask.

This is why I think we need women on boards and leadership teams and in positions of power in significant numbers (and other diverse voices), and why I am in favour of quotas to break the back of some of this. I think the dismissal of equal pay, role in business etc etc concerns as white middle class feminism-mockery of lean in et al- misses the point- lone voices can’t change the world. It’s all linked. If we want this world to be better, we need more women’s (and BAME, non public school, etc etc) voices not just heard but empowered and considered. That isn't happening by itself- I think time has come to force it.

So true. I think all of the Feminism threads that have popped up recently are very useful and interesting but for me, this sort of thing is the absolute bedrock of feminism and the reason for a lot of the other stuff. It's how you end up with a bunch of old men thinking that they are the very best people to decide about who gets to have an abortion by a qualified doctor, for example.

Most things in life come from a male point of view. That's because men talk about themselves as the default in a way that women don't: the man on the street, the working man, he's the man for the job, mankind, businessmen, Man and wife, Mr and Mrs Anthony Smith, and before anyone corrects me, yes we COULD use the female alternative in some cases, but people generally just don't. And then they all uppity if you point it out. We are always an afterthought, and that even applies (sad to say) when we are talking about ourselves sometimes!

If we can't change this very basic stuff, by consciously employing women in higher places and LISTENING then there is very, very little hope for the rest of it.

 

[Pickman's model]

So true. I think all of the Feminism threads that have popped up recently are very useful and interesting but for me, this sort of thing is the absolute bedrock of feminism and the reason for a lot of the other stuff. It's how you end up with a bunch of old men thinking that they are the very best people to decide about who gets to have an abortion by a qualified doctor, for example.

Most things in life come from a male point of view. That's because men talk about themselves as the default in a way that women don't: the man on the street, the working man, he's the man for the job, mankind, businessmen, Man and wife, Mr and Mrs Anthony Smith, and before anyone corrects me, yes we COULD use the female alternative in some cases, but people generally just don't. And then they all uppity if you point it out. We are always an afterthought, and that even applies (sad to say) when we are talking about ourselves sometimes!

If we can't change this very basic stuff, by consciously employing women in higher places and LISTENING then there is very, very little hope for the rest of it.

not to mention the man on the clapham omnibus

 

[mango5]

not to mention the man on the clapham omnibus

You're right. No need to add him to scales. His existence does not tip the balance.

 

[mango5]

The episode about that in the TV version of Ways of Seeing was interesting - you can watch it (and the rest of the series) here: UbuWeb Film & Video: John Berger - Ways of Seeing, Episode 2: Women in Art (1972)

There's currently an update/reworking for Radio 4: 'new ways of seeing' with a digital perspective. Recordings, resources and transcripts available here James Bridle / New Ways of Seeing. At first glance, in the light of this thread, the gender perspective is conspicuous by its absence.

 

[Pickman's model]

You're right. No need to add him to scales. His existence does not tip the balance.

Yeh, the balance already tipped before he was added to the list

 

[Pickman's model]

There's currently an update/reworking for Radio 4: 'new ways of seeing' with a digital perspective. Recordings, resources and transcripts available here James Bridle / New Ways of Seeing. At first glance, in the light of this thread, the gender perspective is conspicuous by its absence.

can you suggest a work by a woman on the subject which covers the gender perspective?

 

[Sweet FA]

Reminds me of the old days of page 3, when the model was twisted in such a way that you could see her tits and her arse.

Kevin Bolk’s Bootylicious ‘Avengers’ Movie Poster Takes On Superhero Sexism
HuffPost is now a part of Oath

 

[Steel Icarus]

The "more women in positions of power" or "more women MPs, more women in the boardroom" school of thought addresses nothing about what they do when they get there. If those women simply shore up systems of oppression and exploitation of working class women then it's pointless.

 

[Poot]

The "more women in positions of power" or "more women MPs, more women in the boardroom" school of thought addresses nothing about what they do when they get there. If those women simply shore up systems of oppression and exploitation of working class women then it's pointless.

I disagree. I don't think it needs considering. I think more women should be in positions of power and I think they should be visible. The oppression of wc women is a strawman (or woman heh heh. Bloody hell it's everywhere!). It badly needs to be addressed but there is no point worrying about the gender of the people doing the oppressing.

 

[mango5]

can you suggest a work by a woman on the subject which covers the gender perspective?

Not off the top of my head, which is unsurprising once we accept the premise of a world where women are anomalous rather than instrumental in how the world is conceived.

 

[Pickman's model]

Not off the top of my head, which is unsurprising once we accept the premise of a world where women are anomalous rather than instrumental in how the world is conceived.

I would be surprised if berger and bridle were the sole sources on the subject, I'll have a proper look in the morning

 

[mango5]

I disagree. I don't think it needs considering. I think more women should be in positions of power and I think they should be visible. The oppression of wc women is a strawman (or woman heh heh. Bloody hell it's everywhere!). It badly needs to be addressed but there is no point worrying about the gender of the people doing the oppressing.

yeah, the idea that women have to be better than men at equality and stuff denies us the privilege of being as mediocre as the next guy. The ability to be shit and get away with it is worth a lot and not at all pointless.

 

[Manter]

Da Vinci and most artists of his time also often depicted children as bizarre creatures who had the proportions of adult men, just scaled down. It's a window into what strange lives these men - and their male customers - were leading, where women and babies were peripheral beings.

On a more positive point, there's a very persuasive argument that the Venus of Willdendorf, and probably some older African fertility statues, were sculpted by women, because they look like some women would see themselves while looking down at their own bodies, than like you'd sculpt an image of a woman from looking at them from the front (the legs and shoulders are especially tiny compared to the rest).

View attachment 171666



It's weird how influential that book is. I mean, it is an interesting book, but it's very odd. And it was on my university course years ago and was on Jay's too - I was able to lend her my copy.

Random aside- I’ve always wondered why those figures are seen as pregnant women. Most look to me like older women- probably those who have had children in the past- with the thickening and softening and spreading that comes with age. I wonder if it’s because men see ‘good fat’ as pregnancy, so something fat and venerated must be pregnancy. Whereas in the ancient world wouldn’t longetivity have held much more mystery and allure?

 

[Manter]

The "more women in positions of power" or "more women MPs, more women in the boardroom" school of thought addresses nothing about what they do when they get there. If those women simply shore up systems of oppression and exploitation of working class women then it's pointless.

Yeah, read my post. If there are one or two women in positions of power who got there by clawing their way through established structures and being as much like the establishment as possible, they can’t/won’t change the world.

But imagine if half, more than half, of the decision makers were female. Then maybe we could see some change.

And the same for BAME, non traditional backgrounds etc- imagine if there were enough to not say ‘look we can success on your terms’ but ‘your terms aren’t even valid any more’

Edit- and also I find the ‘you’re not intersectional enough/concentrating on the right things’ dismissal of feminist issues fucking annoying. Give women 50+% of the power, influence, decision making and money in society, and then we can argue about which women- rather than holding it out of reach and telling us we have to be better to get any, or making our empowerment conditional.

 

[mango5]

I would be surprised if berger and bridle were the sole sources on the subject, I'll have a proper look in the morning

Not sure I care about who has done the theorising, but I was interested to note that gender issues have been downplayed in the contemporary revisiting.

 

[Pickman's model]

Not sure I care about who has done the theorising, but I was interested to note that gender issues have been downplayed in the contemporary revisiting.

Yeh which prompted my question, as berger's work must, surely, have been built on by some feminists in the past 47 years

 

[Steel Icarus]

Yeah, read my post. If there are one or two women in positions of power who got there by clawing their way through established structures and being as much like the establishment as possible, they can’t/won’t change the world.

But imagine if half, more than half, of the decision makers were female. Then maybe we could see some change.

And the same for BAME, non traditional backgrounds etc- imagine if there were enough to not say ‘look we can success on your terms’ but ‘your terms aren’t even valid any more’

Edit- and also I find the ‘you’re not intersectional enough/concentrating on the right things’ dismissal of feminist issues fucking annoying. Give women 50+% of the power, influence, decision making and money in society, and then we can argue about which women- rather than holding it out of reach and telling us we have to be better to get any, or making our empowerment conditional.

Propelling women to the top echelons of organisations obviously has some element of benefit to improving equality/diversity within present neoliberalism, but better to smash the structures of capitalism and class for the benefit of all.

 

[mango5]

... and also I find the ‘you’re not intersectional enough /concentrating on the right things’ dismissal of feminist issues fucking annoying. Give women 50+% of the power, influence, decision making and money in society, and then we can argue about which women- rather than holding it out of reach and telling us we have to be better to get any, or making our empowerment conditional.

This.

 

[colacubes]

Propelling women to the top echelons of organisations obviously has some element of benefit to improving equality/diversity within present neoliberalism, but better to smash the structures of capitalism and class for the benefit of all.

You’re right. We should definitely wait for that. Come the glorious revolution I’m sure all the posh privately educated white boys that seem to be out front in those campaign groups will absolutely make sure that happens

On a serious note there’s a mass of academic evidence that the huge increase in female representation in Parliament (especially post 1997) meant that women’s issues were increasingly looked at and acted on. There’s also a much wider body of work going back to the 1960s on “descriptive representation” and it’s benefits (and downsides). It’s very interesting and all that I’ve read has made me come to the conclusion that an increase in representation is always a good thing even if they’re not the “right” people. And yes there is a problem with class in politics and something needs to be done about it. And intersectionality helps with that to an extent, but in terms of speed of progress let’s just get on with it.