I've only experienced this the other way round. 'SInce you're taking a bag anyway, could you fit in my jacket/book/camera/bottle of water...'
Feminism and a world designed for men
- Thread starter friendofdorothy
- Start date
Hah.
cheesethief
Well-Known Member
This isn't exactly my area of expertise so this may be a silly question, but surely in 2019 there are lots of women designing women's clothes - do they not address the pocket shortcomings? It sounds like there's a ready market for it out there!
FridgeMagnet
Administrator
The history of gender in computing is interesting (well, it's something I find interesting as I work in computing) but pretty typical. Originally nobody had an idea of the potential of algorithmic information processing anyway, and it was treated as a bit of a routine job so palmed off to women, plus some of this happened during WW2 when a lot of the available staff were women (Bletchley Park had loads of women doing really high-level stuff). Once it became obvious that this was important and the job became higher status, it started to become more male dominated.
But there's a significant cultural side-point to this - in the 80s and 90s there was a cultural shift towards anything to do with computers being treated as male, which started from childhood. Computer games were not initially treated as "boys' toys" but marketing increasingly encouraged this. On the one hand you can say that this is ruthless demographic-based advertising practice, and it does coincide with the development of the concept of being able to target a whole suite of products to a particular demographic, but I don't think it is independent of the change in the nature of the professional role. Gender-biasing a particular area doesn't come out of nowhere. There's no intrinsic reason computers couldn't be seen as "girly" even if there was going to be a distinction at all.
Basically I agree that gender bias in tech arises from broader social attitudes. We can address it specifically with "women in tech" conferences and "teach girls to code" projects and so on, but I always think those are going to be most successful if they are also a way to attack the structures that brought about the problems in the first place. It's not just an issue with computer tech as an area - developers work in a world run by bog standard corporate management.
Manter
Lunch Mob
Yes. More and more women’s clothes have pockets- but lots don’t because they make a garment ‘bulky’ especially around the hips. This, a whole other can of worms.
Sweet FA
✪ Three rounds Lord, in my .44 ✪
glasses
scifisam
feck! arse! girls! drink!
BBC London news is currently talking about some facial recognition software that the Met have been using. It's ridiculously ineffective - it was used just six times at Stratford Westfield and got it wrong every time, and in the other larger trial it was wrong 96% of the time. But the Met still want to continue rolling out its usage! A charity whose name I didn't catch (maybe Liberty?) intends to sue them if they do it because apparently all the women and ethnic minorities it looked for were misidentified.
It's been used at protests and the Notting Hill Carnival.
I've looked online but can't yet find a source with the information that was just on the news, but I'll look again tomorrow. And of course the news is iplayer.
It's been used at protests and the Notting Hill Carnival.
I've looked online but can't yet find a source with the information that was just on the news, but I'll look again tomorrow. And of course the news is iplayer.
FridgeMagnet
Administrator
The UK-based electronic privacy groups have been mentioning this for a while - I'll see if I can find something. IIRC the system was just so bad it wasn't even slightly helpful. But you can sell the cops or military any old shit in this area, it's a huge market as there's very little oversight regarding "does it even fucking work".
eta: here's a Guardian story - UK police use of facial recognition technology a failure, says report
scifisam
feck! arse! girls! drink!
Jesus, that is ridiculous:
So it completely and utterly failed and they carried on using it anyway. I understand that you have to give technology a chance to learn but that's just insane.
And of course the only way they'll have known they got it wrong is by stopping people and demanding ID. So that's 102 people stopped. What happened if they didn't have ID on them, I wonder? Were they held until they could produce it?
Also this:
Although that must be a slightly more advanced version of the tech because it's hard to be worse than 100% wrong. (Though some people do give it a really good try).
So it completely and utterly failed and they carried on using it anyway. I understand that you have to give technology a chance to learn but that's just insane.
And of course the only way they'll have known they got it wrong is by stopping people and demanding ID. So that's 102 people stopped. What happened if they didn't have ID on them, I wonder? Were they held until they could produce it?
Also this:
Although that must be a slightly more advanced version of the tech because it's hard to be worse than 100% wrong. (Though some people do give it a really good try).
Gramsci
Well-Known Member
To be fair I took Puddy_Tat face palm at frustration at way Council officers go on.
The example in question the Council. officer agreed that women should be able to do non traditional jobs. Then undercut that by saying in the present situation of cuts this was not going to happen. So getting women to do cooking was the sensible option for now.
I belong to a couple of community groups so regularly meet Council officers.
I regularly get told by Council officers/ officials from outsourced Council services that I'm not "sensible". That I'm not realistic.
Its not that they have unconscious for example sexist attitudes. Far from it. They agree. But think in present economic situation I'm not being realistic. A world designed by women is something they would agree with. But that is for some as unspecified future date.
This is how oppression is now perpetuated. Overt sexism has gone to a large extent. Its now reformulated as a problem that will be dealt with at a future date. That keeps getting put back.
Imo that's more insidious and difficult to deal with.
Imo in late seventies early eighties there was an historical/ political moment when it looked like ideas like designed world for women etc would become mainstream.
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mango5
Endeavour era
Gramsci I could just as easily have levelled the criticism at you for providing the example which could have been written in a gender neutral way if the point was about council workers.
FWiW I think you and Puddy_Tat are both sound and can take the critique but this thread seems like a reasonable place to ask that examples of such attitudes aren't attributed to women if that's not the the point of the anecdote.
FWiW I think you and Puddy_Tat are both sound and can take the critique but this thread seems like a reasonable place to ask that examples of such attitudes aren't attributed to women if that's not the the point of the anecdote.
TopCat
Putin fanboy
Why do women buy clothes they don't like? Not like there is a shortage of choices. Most stores have double size (compared to blokes clothes) amounts of stuff to sell. See also pink razors.
mango5
Endeavour era
Of course not. We all lose out in different ways. That's the point. Women lose out more, for a multitude of reasons that deserve their own threads.
A world designed by women over umpteen centuries would doubtless be awful too. But that thought experiment is meaningless here
Puddy_Tat
naturally fluffy
dunno really.
i'm not sure i'd really spotted the gender of the person making the facepaw-worthy comment in Gramsci 's post.
having said that, is it less, more, or differently facepaw-worthy that (in this instance) a woman seems to have gone along with accepting gender related limitations / boundaries? i can't answer this from a woman's perspective. from where i'm sitting, i can find gay men being against gay rights / prejudiced against what they consider the 'wrong sort of gay people' pretty damn facepaw-worthy...
Why do men do this?
weepiper
I fix the machines that fight climate change
I don't buy clothes I don't like but the shops are nonetheless full of them.
Treacle Toes
Time
Because women only have themselves to blame or something....
Gramsci
Well-Known Member
Listened to the radio four New Ways of Seeing programme mentioned by friendofdorothy
BBC Radio 4 - New Ways of Seeing, Digital Justice
Its one of several. This one was repeated this evening.
This one was about how technology of IT is reinforcing gender and racial stereotypes.
So the three artists in programme try to subvert technology or use it in way that means people can control it.
The work of Stephanie Dimkins reminded me of the Matrix feminist architects of the early 80s. Working with people to develop their own algorithms.
Zach Blas work was redesigning technology to subvert gender stereotypes.
Morehshin Allahyar looked at possibilities of 3D technology.
What I liked about all of them is that they didn't reject technology. They show that things don't have to be the way they are. As one of them says at end this is about (alternative) world building.
Its also entirely realistic. They are using existing cutting edge technology. This isn't purely utopian.
I found a few links to the artists in the programme.
about
http://www.morehshin.com/3d-additivist-manifesto/
Queer Technologies | Zach Blas
Relevant to this thread together these artists show how using technology worlds can be designed that go beyond the traditional binary of gender. What Zach calls hetero normative.
BBC Radio 4 - New Ways of Seeing, Digital Justice
Its one of several. This one was repeated this evening.
This one was about how technology of IT is reinforcing gender and racial stereotypes.
So the three artists in programme try to subvert technology or use it in way that means people can control it.
The work of Stephanie Dimkins reminded me of the Matrix feminist architects of the early 80s. Working with people to develop their own algorithms.
Zach Blas work was redesigning technology to subvert gender stereotypes.
Morehshin Allahyar looked at possibilities of 3D technology.
What I liked about all of them is that they didn't reject technology. They show that things don't have to be the way they are. As one of them says at end this is about (alternative) world building.
Its also entirely realistic. They are using existing cutting edge technology. This isn't purely utopian.
I found a few links to the artists in the programme.
about
http://www.morehshin.com/3d-additivist-manifesto/
Queer Technologies | Zach Blas
Relevant to this thread together these artists show how using technology worlds can be designed that go beyond the traditional binary of gender. What Zach calls hetero normative.
wayward bob
i ate all your bees
i was a member of a uk feminist parents' board for a while, 15 or so years back. iirc it was all female posters (a spinoff from a more mainstream parenting board, so pretty tightly focussed on the parenting aspect). i found it a genuinely empowering/inspiring experience, a chance to listen to and be heard by people i thoroughly respected/admired. the first times i met internet people "irl" were connections i made there.
sadly it imploded horribly messily at a point when i was least able to cope with it. made me wary of any kind of genuinely open online engagement for a long time after. but i still think of it fondly as my first real internet "home" and wonder how everyone's getting on still.
8ball
Decolonise colons!
Pickman's model
Starry Wisdom
saw this which some of you may be interested in
Tie-on Pockets and Her Story in the Long Eighteenth Century
Tie-on Pockets and Her Story in the Long Eighteenth Century
The IHR is currently being boycotted by academics and students in support of outsourced workers at the University of London.
Pickman's model
Starry Wisdom
er not quite right, events being held within the ihr (and other institutes of the central university of london) are currently subject to a boycott, so keep an eye on the location which may be subject to change; in addition, i don't suppose the boycott extends to the upcoming book.
scifisam
feck! arse! girls! drink!
Because within your budget there often is a shortage of choices.
Pink razors have annoying marketing but they still work perfectly well as razors and if there are multiple razors in one bathroom it can be handy knowing whose razor is whose.
8ball
Decolonise colons!
Pickman's model
Starry Wisdom
she was korean, pockets is the forename as it wereTie-on Pockets is a cruel name to give a child.
friendofdorothy
Solidarity against neoliberalism!
yes it it silly question
This is p&p - not the fucking threads and dreads forum! I really don't want to hear what anyone thinks of womens clothes here.
An analysis of gendered roles the fashion industry re-enforces well that would be more welcome. The fashion industry exploitation that traps (often female) workers making the tons of throw away clothes and the many female consumers that are brought up to think they must buy this crap from childhood (new wardrobe for your sindy doll), bombarded with adverts to buy it, to keep up, to be acceptable amongst their peers.
Nor do I want any more fucking 'helpful' links to things to buy to make my female self fit the world better. I want the world to fit 51% of the human population better.
8ball and Pickman's model why do you think here is a good place for sniggering? Do we need distraction in case it's all tooo serious? maybe us women haven't got a sense of humour maybe. Take it elsewhere, please.
Thank you mango5 - well said I think Gromit should fuck off too.
friendofdorothy
Solidarity against neoliberalism!
Its not just products and objects that are not designed for women, but education, politics, heath care, systems, ways of seeing, they way the work place is organised, the way the world works - I want us to challenge why things are as they are - how and why in these supposedly post feminist 21st century days is the world still isn't designed for women. How do we challenge it?
Puddy_Tat
naturally fluffy
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