Feminism and a world designed for men

[FridgeMagnet]

Here's a thing from the FT about increasing internal dissatisfaction with the way AI systems work, even within the companies concerned, and the absurd token efforts over "AI ethics": Subscribe to read | Financial Times

In response to criticism not only from campaigners and academics but also their own staff, companies have begun to self-regulate by trying to set up their own “AI ethics” initiatives that perform roles ranging from academic research — as in the case of Google-owned DeepMind’s Ethics and Society division — to formulating guidelines and convening external oversight panels.

The efforts have led to a fragmented landscape of efforts that both supporters and critics agree have not yet had demonstrable outcomes beyond igniting a debate around the topic of AI and its social implications.

In Google’s case, its external advisory council on AI lasted only a week before its employees revolted at the appointment of Kay Coles James, from the conservative Heritage Foundation think-tank, and shut it down earlier this month.

Luciano Floridi, who was one of the advisers and is director of the Digital Ethics Lab at Oxford, said the board has been planning to help Google navigate its trickiest dilemmas. “Some projects are perfectly legal, but may not be what people expect from a company like Google or the values it has committed to,” he said.

 

[friendofdorothy]

So you know how unpleasant it is to be horribly hot?

yes of course I do, I'm a menopausal harridan.

 

[friendofdorothy]

I love that on a thread about feminism and a world designed for men, so many posts are about how ACTUALLY its really hard being tall and hot and male

Yes. We don't live in bespoke world and a lot of cars/objects/environments etc are designed for the 'average'. It just seems to me that the average is too often the male average. One size rarely fits all.

I would like to draw attention to the systematic design that has not just inconvenient but has been detrimental or even deadly to 51% of the population who isn't male

 

[Gromit]

Seems relevant...

When will you next buy a phone?

When Apple announced it was discontinuing its iPhone SE, which has a 4in screen, Caroline Criado-Perez, author of a new book called Invisible Women, tweeted that the tech giant had "failed to update the only phone it makes that fits the average woman's hand size".
"Weak applause all round from my arthritic hands," she continued in the now-deleted thread on Twitter in September 2018.

Do you agree?

[anecdotal evidence only]
From what I've seen out and about women tend to go for the biggest handset they can get their hands on so this criticism surprised me.

I personally wanted a big handset. Tried one in store. Saw one handed typing was impossible on one and thought fuck that I'll stick to normal sized phones thanks.

 

[friendofdorothy]

I was born in the 60s in a world very much designed for men. I was socialised to be meek, obedient in preparation for my future role of wife and mother. (thank fuck feminism and queer liberation saved me from that!)

The 11+ exam at the time allowed more boys to pass with a lower score.
The equal pay act didn't come in til I was 10 and the equal education act after I had started secondary school. I went to a school not equipped to provide 'male' subjects - metal work, tech drawing or A level physics. As a young women I felt I had to try very hard to get taken seriously in education and in work. I feel the design of education and political system through my formative years put me a disavantage.

This was a common saying "Whatever women do they must do twice as well as men to be thought half as good." I've just looked that quote up and found it has an ending that I didn't know "Luckily, this is not difficult."

 

[Gramsci]

There were moves back in late 70s and early 80s to make architecture that was designed by women.

Matrix Feminist Design Cooperative – Making Difference: Architectures of Gender

This means a change of role of the architect. The architect should help the users to realize their own needs and help to express them, rather than imposing ideas and offering ready-made designs. Therefore in their projects, they attempted to develop participatory design methods that value women’s involvement in all stages of the evolution of a building – from recognizing the need of a building until its final use.

These feminist architects tried to break down the mystification of design to encourage women to plan spaces.

This has been forgotten. With cuts and Thatcher this kind of feminist community. planning didn't last.

 

[friendofdorothy]

Re computing. A lot of women worked in computing before the 70s. When women could be legally paid less than men, could be legally sacked when they became pregnant or when they married.

At some point women began to be excluded from computing, whether that was legally, or consciouly or unconsciously - but the fact is the computing industry became more male at some point.

Am I wrong in thinking that if the data that fed the A1 resulted in an anti female bias - there must have been bias in the employment practises before A1. If the programs that some tech companies used had this bias up to 5 years ago then there must be a historic gender inbalance in these companies from before that time. More of the people with over 5 year experience must be disproportionately male. that fact that this is being raised as an issue now is good - but how long will it take HR to adjust such gender inbalance in employment?

I think that everyone, what ever their gender, absorbs the bias of the society they are raised in and the culture all around them. When we all have conscious and unconscious bias against women it takes conscious effort to examine it and act against it.

 

[friendofdorothy]

There were moves back in late 70s and early 80s to make architecture that was designed by women.

Matrix Feminist Design Cooperative – Making Difference: Architectures of Gender



These feminist architects tried to break down the mystification of design to encourage women to plan spaces.

This has been forgotten. With cuts and Thatcher this kind of feminist community. planning didn't last.

I would have liked to have been an artitect, but I didn't have the opportunity to do tech drawing O level.

 

[Gramsci]

I would have liked to have been an artitect, but I didn't have the opportunity to do tech drawing O level.

Did you see in the article about Matrix feminist architects that they designed Lambeth women's workshop. Probably early 80s.

The workshop taught women joinery.

There was a lot of these small projects around in early 80s. Encouraging women into learning skills that traditionally men only did.

These projects were a step towards moving on from a world designed by men.

It's sad that all this went.

There is a paucity of imagination now.

I was talking to a Council officer recently. Her job was to help single mothers on the estate into work. Her idea was to encourage them to set-up cooking type business

I did ask why not set up courses in skills like joinery etc.

Her view was that was to difficult and these women cooked at home anyway. I did say this is reinforcing gender stereotypes.

She didn't have answer to that.

Apart from fact that these days there is little or no funding to run projects.

My point is without resources gender stereotypes get replicated as it's easier than providing support to help change them.

 

[mango5]

Seems relevant...

When will you next buy a phone?
Do you agree?

[anecdotal evidence only]
From what I've seen out and about women tend to go for the biggest handset they can get their hands on so this criticism surprised me.

I personally wanted a big handset. Tried one in store. Saw one handed typing was impossible on one and thought fuck that I'll stick to normal sized phones thanks.

We don't give a shit about your surprise, anecdotal evidence and personal preferences. Whether or not we agree with a woman who has done a ton of well received and published work on this is irrelevant to whether she is right about it or not.
Luckily we can depersonalise this
Apple’s big screens are bad news for women, or anyone with small hands

 

[Puddy_Tat]

Her view was that was to difficult and these women cooked at home anyway.

 

[friendofdorothy]

great programme on bbcR4 this morning called new ways of seeing BBC - New Ways Of Seeing - Media Centre

How is technology changing the way we see? The artist James Bridle (pictured) reimagines John Berger’s Ways Of Seeing for the digital age and reveals the internet’s hidden infrastructure.
In 1972, Berger’s seminal TV series and book changed perceptions of art and set out to reveal the language of images. Of course, that was before the internet, smartphones, and social media took hold.

How do we see the world around us now? And, who are the artists urging us to look more closely?

James Bridle writes about the development of technology on our lives. His work has been exhibited at the V&A, the Barbican, in galleries worldwide, and online. In this series of four programmes, he updates Berger’s Ways Of Seeing, inviting contemporary artists to explore how the technology we use every day has transformed the ways in which we see and are seen.

In the first episode, Invisible Networks, James looks for the hidden, physical infrastructure of the internet. Does it matter that it’s being swept out of sight? Artists Hito Steyerl, Ingrid Burrington, Trevor Paglen, Olia Lialina, Julian Oliver and Danja Vasiliev explain why they’re compelled to show us what’s going on beneath the surface.

• Producer: Steve Urquhart
• A Reduced Listening production for BBC Radio 4

lots of people talking about the themes we have been discussing here. Well worth a listen

 

[mango5]

View attachment 169457

It would be really nice to avoid examples of women having these attitudes. We know many do, and that it has an impact. We live in a world of facepalm, please don't rub it in. Gramsci's point about resources is the key issue in response to the OP

Females are 51% of the population but the world its systems, technology, medicine and so much more are not designed with us in mind. Why?

This issue makes me livid.

I'm getting rather grumpy and impatient too.

 

[friendofdorothy]

Apart from fact that these days there is little or no funding to run projects.

My point is without resources gender stereotypes get replicated as it's easier than providing support to help change them.

'feminism' and 'queer' liberation weren't taught in class and weren't well resourced or publicly funded. How did they suceed? Challanging stereotypes and looking at our own unconcious bias is something we can all do. Things get replicated only if we don't all examine our own thoughts and actions. In the 70s and 80s feminism mostly took place among small groups of women in CR consciousness raising groups in each others houses - passing on ideas and sharing books and knowledge.

Surely with wide access to the internet such meeting of ideas should be easier, as we are doing here. However I think trolls try to shut down debate eg whataboutery, what about the menz, etc. My knowledge of social media begins and ends with urban so I'd love to hear from people about experiences of discussing feminist topics on line.

 

[DownwardDog]

I bought my car 5 years ago and I can adjust seat height, pitch, steering wheel angle, temparatue on different sides of the car etc but not the height of the seatbelt. If I make the seat high enough so that it isn't cutting into the side of my neck, it's a really uncomfortable (and rubbish) driving position. It would cost very little to make it adjustable but it's not considered necessary

Get a 'Seat Belt Adjuster Clip' off ebay.

 

[mango5]

Get a 'Seat Belt Adjuster Clip' off ebay.

Why should women have to spend more to get the world to fit our bodies?

 

[DownwardDog]

Why should women have to spend more to get the world to fit our bodies?

They shouldn't but she's got the car she's got and the clip would make it less unpleasant to drive hence my suggestion.

 

[Pickman's model]

Did you see in the article about Matrix feminist architects that they designed Lambeth women's workshop. Probably early 80s.

The workshop taught women joinery.

There was a lot of these small projects around in early 80s. Encouraging women into learning skills that traditionally men only did.

These projects were a step towards moving on from a world designed by men.

It's sad that all this went.

There is a paucity of imagination now.

I was talking to a Council officer recently. Her job was to help single mothers on the estate into work. Her idea was to encourage them to set-up cooking type business

I did ask why not set up courses in skills like joinery etc.

Her view was that was to difficult and these women cooked at home anyway. I did say this is reinforcing gender stereotypes.

She didn't have answer to that.

Apart from fact that these days there is little or no funding to run projects.

My point is without resources gender stereotypes get replicated as it's easier than providing support to help change them.

Mrs model was on a free women-only carpentry course at an fe college recently, so some things like that are out there

 

[mango5]

They shouldn't but she's got the car she's got and the clip would make it less unpleasant to drive hence my suggestion.

I'm pretty sure she wasn't asking for suggestions. Your response to her post is the kind of thing this thread is about, i.e. not making it easier to find adjustments but the fundamental design issues.

 

[LeytonCatLady]

This is a really minor thing, but I like geeky t-shirts and an awful lot of them are only for men, or there are technically some available in a woman's shape but they're never in stock. Obvs women can wear men's t-shirts, and some do, but the shape doesn't suit most women - some don't care, but I do. Went around Forbidden Planet the other day and they had one women's shape t-shirt in the entire shop, as well as about 100 men's t-shirts.

I feel you, it's the same for me with band T-shirts. Often, when you do get one specifically in a "ladies'" size, it's in white or pink instead of the black/dark colour I personally prefer. And don't get me started on the lack of pockets in women's jeans. Not all of us want to carry a handbag around. Thank God for rucksacks.

Also, as a guitarist, I've had one or two comments about "why are your tits hanging over your guitar?" I refuse to be shamed out of playing it just because whoever designed the instrument didn't have women in mind.

 

[Gromit]

We don't give a shit about your surprise, anecdotal evidence and personal preferences. Whether or not we agree with a woman who has done a ton of well received and published work on this is irrelevant to whether she is right about it or not.
Luckily we can depersonalise this
Apple’s big screens are bad news for women, or anyone with small hands

No need to bite my head off. I was only asking for your opinion.

And obviously I was aware that anecdotal evidence doesnt count for much which is why I labeled it in square brackets.

 

[mango5]

I'm tempted to ask the mods for a thread ban for you on all matters relating to women.
In the meantime do fuck off, Gromit.

Why does society not trust women?
Should female footballers be paid the same as males?
Statement festival: 'Man-free' event found guilty of discrimination
Literary expert twat resigns from the Bronte Society after hugely capable woman awarded patron role
https://www.urban75.net/forums/thre...exual-harassment.355030/page-12#post-15301795

 

[cheesethief]

I feel you, it's the same for me with band T-shirts. Often, when you do get one specifically in a "ladies'" size, it's in white or pink instead of the black/dark colour I personally prefer. And don't get me started on the lack of pockets in women's jeans. Not all of us want to carry a handbag around. Thank God for rucksacks.

Why don't women's jeans have pockets in them?

 

[LeytonCatLady]

Why don't women's jeans have pockets in them?

They do, but not usually ones deep enough to carry your wallet/phone etc. Blokes' jeans seem to have deeper pockets for that exact purpose.

 

[Winot]

Saw this recently which might be useful:

with POCKETS! – because we just want pockets

 

[Poot]

I love this image. I wish I'd thought of this.

 

[mango5]

Short answer: patriarchy in the fashion industry The Gender Politics of Pockets
Long answer: patriarchy in the fashion industry

This study situates pockets as significant gendered objects in the dress and lives of men and women in the period from the 1790s to 1914. Using surviving examples and a diverse range of visual and documentary sources, it examines the role of pockets in the consumption of personal possessions and money, and explores how pockets occupied a special place in relation to the body and its gestures. By revealing differences in the way men and women used their pockets, the study concludes that pockets embodied change and complexity within the consumption of fashion and the construction of gender.

Burman, Barbara (2002) Pocketing the difference: pockets and gender in nineteenth-century Britain. Gender & History, 14 (3), 447-469. (doi:10.1111/1468-0424.00277).

 

[eoin_k]

Hopefully it doesn't come over all MRA to suggest that men suffer from the patriarchy of pockets as well. We're all too often conscripted into the role of walking handbags for the women in our lives who can't fit their keys, phone or wallet into their own jeans.

 

[kabbes]

Hopefully it doesn't come over all MRA to suggest that men suffer from the patriarchy of pockets as well. We're all too often conscripted into the role of walking handbags for the women in our lives who can't fit their keys, phone or wallet into their own jeans.

Thus increasing the association between femininity and helplessness.

 

[Treacle Toes]

Often when we are going out my partner will ask if I am taking a bag with me as he wants to put his keys and stuff in it to keep them safe and.or he doesn't want them weighing his pockets down.