Feminism and a world designed for men

[Manter]

I'm curious to know what is thought about the pioneers. I can see that the first woman doctors, or firefighters, or Prime Ministers could inspire more women. But I can also see them serving as a mechanism for saying 'Look it can be done, so STFU' and so the outliers reinforce the status quo for the rest. Another possibility is that the occasional woman CEO or PM on purpose kicks away the ladder for anybody else.

It really does need to be bottom up, not top down

The point a load of us have made again and again is that the odd one or two to make blokes feel better, but who have to conform to patriarchal standards to get there- is absolutely not the solution in any way.

More than half of all positions of power (and we are not talking about CEOs- we are talking about novelists, journalists, academics, talking heads, think tanks etc etc- anyone in a position to shape how we think) being held by women is a different ball game.

And how does bottom up representation work? We keep working harder and being told we’re not good enough? Too pushy, too aggressive, not committed enough, looking at the wrong issues, not sisterly enough, not intersectional enough, too soft, too emotional, not mathematically minded, not cut-through enough etc etc

 

[8ball]

Thanks for the responses - I see a mixture of things we've tried to do, some we haven't been able to do for assorted reasons, and some new ideas to chew over.

Regarding job shares - there has been some organisational hostility to that, but I think with one of the team on maternity leave, then if she returns on reduced hours that may be a lever we can use to work on changing that for further applicants.

Further responses welcome obv.

 

[kabbes]

What things haven’t you been able to do and why?

 

[8ball]

What things haven’t you been able to do and why?

The kind of "root and branch" stuff you talk about isn't within our reach, we're just a very small team in a much larger organisation (which has its own Diversity & Inclusion things going on, as you'd expect). There has been some organisational rigidity with regard to things like flexible hours. We're slowly winning the war there, I think.

Also, because it is such a small team, we are very rarely recruiting and so aren't generally sending people out to recruitment fairs etc.

 

[kabbes]

The kind of "root and branch" stuff you talk about isn't within our reach, we're just a very small team in a much larger organisation (which has its own Diversity & Inclusion things going on, as you'd expect). There has been some organisational rigidity with regard to things like flexible hours. We're slowly winning the war there, I think.

Also, because it is such a small team, we are very rarely recruiting and so aren't generally sending people out to recruitment fairs etc.

You can still look within your own team to understand how you’re structurally contributing to the inequality, though. That’s the point being made. I get the impression that you think that everything is peachy internally within your team and the problems causing the lack of women applicants is all located externally. I doubt there’s nothing you can do to engender internal change — more likely, you are facing denial combined with apathy to do the work that creates the change that would be needed.

 

[8ball]

You can still look within your own team to understand how you’re structurally contributing to the inequality, though. That’s the point being made. I get the impression that you think that everything is peachy internally within your team and the problems causing the lack of women applicants is all located externally. I doubt there’s nothing you can do to engender internal change — more likely, you are facing denial combined with apathy to do the work that creates the change that would be needed.

No, though that's what my boss reckons (ie. that this is beyond our control).

 

[kabbes]

No, though that's what my boss reckons (ie. that this is beyond our control).

Right, so this is what I mean. It’s not that the problem doesn’t have approaches that can be taken to resolve them, it’s that some layer of management is not actually willing to do it. Well then guess what? Things ain’t gonna change. You can’t have your cake and eat it too. If you want change, you have to enact some change.

 

[8ball]

Right, so this is what I mean. It’s not that the problem doesn’t have approaches that can be taken to resolve them, it’s that some layer of management is not actually willing to do it. Well then guess what? Things ain’t gonna change. You can’t have your cake and eat it too. If you want change, you have to enact some change.

I sense a montage is coming...

 

[quimcunx]

This might not be popular in the context of a couple of previous posts, but my team at work (doing something pretty obscure in the tech-pharma area) is about 5-strong and has had maybe 12 people pass through over the years, with only 2 women, both of which have been seriously excellent (one has moved on to another company, and the other is on maternity leave atm).

Thing is, we actually *do* have trouble getting women to apply, and I think a part of it is that there's a reticence (which I guess in some ways is understandable), to join a largely male team. Also, I don't know to what extent the subject matter has a bearing.

I'd welcome any thoughts (from the women reading this thread especially) on what might help us with this, because with a small team doing what we do, it's really valuable to have a decent range of perspectives.

One thing I notice in your post is you say both women are seriously excellent. What about the other 10? Are they all also seriously excellent? Obviously with a ratio of 10/2 it is statistically more likely that one of the 10 is less than excellent. But could there be an element of the women having to be twice as good to get half as far?

 

[kabbes]

I just see this as typical male reaction to feminism in microcosm. Things need to change! But obviously not things that I need to work at or change in myself. Other things, that other people can do — they need to change.

 

[8ball]

One thing I notice in your post is you say both women are seriously excellent. What about the other 10? Are they all also seriously excellent? Obviously with a ratio of 10/2 it is statistically more likely that one of the 10 is less than excellent. But could there be an element of the women having to be twice as good to get half as far?

I don't think either have been as good as they are because of their gender, but I think having a diverse group (on more counts than just gender) is generally good for the group dynamic. Everyone on the team always has a mixture of strengths and weaknesses.

Then there's the question of whether it's even a problem that a team has eg. 5 men and 1 woman when there are other teams that have the reverse skew.

 

[8ball]

I just see this as typical male reaction to feminism in microcosm. Things need to change! But obviously not things that I need to work at or change in myself. Other things, that other people can do — they need to change.

On the bright side, it's good that we have you to tell other people that they need to change, and to stop locating the problem in others.

 

[kabbes]

On the bright side, it's good that we have you to tell other people that they need to change, and to stop locating the problem in others.

Did I or did I not give an example of a situation where I enacted change that I was actually part of in specific response to your question in the first place?

But this is just the next stage after denial — anger.

 

[8ball]

Did I or did I not give an example of a situation where I enacted change that I was actually part of in specific response to your question in the first place?

But this is just the next stage after denial — anger.

I wasn't angry, but it's nice that you are going through the process for me.
Bargaining next?

Or even something not involving the pissing contest?

 

[kabbes]

I wasn't angry, but it's nice that you are going through the process for me.
Bargaining next?

Was that irony intentional?

 

[8ball]

Was that irony intentional?

Whose irony, and what's it worth to you?

 

[Manter]

I don't think either have been as good as they are because of their gender, but I think having a diverse group (on more counts than just gender) is generally good for the group dynamic. Everyone on the team always has a mixture of strengths and weaknesses.

Then there's the question of whether it's even a problem that a team has eg. 5 men and 1 woman when there are other teams that have the reverse skew.

The 5/1 and then reverse skew elsewhere is interesting. A diverse team is good because it avoids groupthink (among other things).... plus I wonder how many teams point to the same female-packed team. So ten male teams are ok because they can point at one female team (as happens with leadership- we can’t be sexist, we have a female board member/trustee/advisor/contributor)

 

[8ball]

The 5/1 and then reverse skew elsewhere is interesting. A diverse team is good because it avoids groupthink (among other things).... plus I wonder how many teams point to the same female-packed team. So ten male teams are ok because they can point at one female team (as happens with leadership- we can’t be sexist, we have a female board member/trustee/advisor/contributor)

I don’t give much of a toss who in management is pointing at what. Just pondering ways of thinking about degrees of skew where numbers are small. But an all male team seems likely to lead to all male applicants (and the reverse applying), for various reasons.

I have no direct power re: recruitment or anything like that, by the way, but it’s something we discuss from time to time.

Groupthink is an interesting one. I think a lot of managers would flounder without it.

 

[Treacle Toes]

 

[Steel Icarus]

So?

 

[8ball]

Leaving all that stuff on (Bluetooth, 4G, wifi etc.) is going to run your battery down.

 

[wayward bob]

i had a boss who didn't appreciate parcel couriers re-delivering her *work* post to her home address. i couldn't see the problem (and appreciated the odd redirect).

when i'm approached in a local shop with a parcel cos the dude spotted me is the correct response appreciative or wary? answers on a postcard...

 

[Treacle Toes]

Leaving all that stuff on (Bluetooth, 4G, wifi etc.) is going to run your battery down.

Yeah, it's not like I can have a reason to have stuff running on my own phone without needing the implications of doing so mansplained to me ..

Feels like that reading these threads recently too...men missing the point over and over again, squating these threads just in case there's an opportunity to remind us of something we aren't trusted to know/have considered ourselves.

 

[Treacle Toes]

The conversation recently has reminded me of being told by some twit of a manager at an events company that whilst he thought the concept of positive discrimination was/is really bad he'd love to 'put together' an all female 'crew' as it's a rarity and had 'market' value.

He sat there almost drooling, proud as punch of his great idea completely missing the irony...it was fine as long as he got the glory, he didn't actually give a shit about improving the lot of women.

 

[8ball]

Yeah, it's not like I can have a reason to have stuff running on my own phone without needing the implications of doing so mansplained to me ..

Feels like that reading these threads recently too...men missing the point over and over again, squating these threads just in case there's an opportunity to remind us of something we aren't trusted to know/have considered ourselves.

You are, as always, an inexhaustible well of good humour.

 

[Treacle Toes]

'Smile love it might never happen'

 

[Treacle Toes]

Nevermind that it has happened and continues to...

 

[friendofdorothy]

View attachment 172527

Yes I noticed that too

 

[Manter]

i had a boss who didn't appreciate parcel couriers re-delivering her *work* post to her home address. i couldn't see the problem (and appreciated the odd redirect).

when i'm approached in a local shop with a parcel cos the dude spotted me is the correct response appreciative or wary? answers on a postcard...

I’d be really wary if work post was redirected home by anyone other than about three people (immediate team/HR) and think stalker

 

[Manter]

Yeah, it's not like I can have a reason to have stuff running on my own phone without needing the implications of doing so mansplained to me ..

Feels like that reading these threads recently too...men missing the point over and over again, squating these threads just in case there's an opportunity to remind us of something we aren't trusted to know/have considered ourselves.

Yeah. Lots of pages of men telling women they aren’t doing feminism right. Some well meaning but misguided, some malicious.

Worth saying, mind, that I really welcome men into these conversations. I just hate the pages of willy waving that break out periodically. Genuinely well intentioned conversation- even if occasionally a bit off the mark- I also really welcome. It’s the hyper-masculine point scoring with a side serving of barely concealed misogyny that grates as it then takes all the decent men off down a rabbit hole.