Feminism and a world designed for men

[ViolentPanda]

Yeah. Children's Services manager Kathy Tracey brought the charges in. They took all of the adventure play stuff out too and replaced it with top down crap. How much is it now?

Last time I asked a Battersea resident friend - a couple of yrs ago - it was £6 for an "all day pass", and that for an APG with no adventure in it.

 

[ViolentPanda]

But hey class is irrelevant apparently.

No-one has said it's irrelevant, they've said it's not the be all and end all, which is a perfectly fair comment. Engels himself acknowledged (in "The Condition of the Working Class in England") that working class women bore a double burden - that of productive AND reproductive labour. It's about class AND sex AND race.

 

[TopCat]

No-one has said it's irrelevant, they've said it's not the be all and end all, which is a perfectly fair comment. Engels himself acknowledged (in "The Condition of the Working Class in England") that working class women bore a double burden - that of productive AND reproductive labour. It's about class AND sex AND race.

I'm finding it hard to be lectured on this by a Green Party supporter.

 

[Manter]

I'm finding it hard to be lectured on this by a Green Party supporter.

Play the ball not the man ffs

 

[TopCat]

Play the ball not the man ffs

Oh please.

 

[Manter]

Oh please.

There are two pages of men bitching at each other, and now you’ve made it personal so we face more of the same. It’s quite, quite ridiculous. This is a thread about feminism not individual’s personal issues with one another

 

[TopCat]

This thread is littered with personally driven beef and has many play the man not the ball instances. Your request to me to play the ball not the man as if I was the first is quite something.

 

[friendofdorothy]

So I don't believe getting underrepresented groups into senior positions will make that much difference beyond getting basic equality.

Basic equality might be a start.

To make it clear. On basic equal rights level across society men and women should have equal pay for same job, CEOs , owners of business should be fifty fifty men and women.

But I don't think we are anywhere near yet. Could it achieve some change in culture that would be beneficial for women if we achieved this, maybe, maybe not, who can say as we are not there yet. I'd be interested to see any stats on just how represented/paid women are at every level, I suspect it's nowhere near 50/50.

I would argue its only as increasing numbers of women have made inroads to jobs/trades/professions over the last 100yrs, that the changes have happened. Would we have 'equal pay', maternity benefits at all if women hadn't pushed for it? These things wasn't on the patriachal male agenda til women demanded them.

You seem to diss what Winot and spanglechick said as the 'trickle down effect' - I thought they were talking about a change in cultural understanding. Wasn't the 'trickle down effect' Tory speak for it didn't matter if some people got rich, that wealth would trickle down to others? I don't believe it ever existed.

 

[Sweet FA]

This thread is littered with personally driven beef and has many play the man not the ball instances. Your request to me to play the ball not the man as if I was the first is quite something.

Ah come on. VP's picked you up here; I'm interested in your answer to him; not how well you can swerve it. Who cares who's said what beforehand?

 

[TopCat]

Ah come on. VP's picked you up here; I'm interested in your answer to him; not how well you can swerve it. Who cares who's said what beforehand?

Not trying to swerve. Can see why it might come across like that. It was more just digging a poster who has a very good knowledge of history and class struggle and then votes Green.
But not fair and apols to VP. Will answer when I finish work.

 

[friendofdorothy]

Any ideas on feminism?

 

[redsquirrel]

Wasn't the 'trickle down effect' Tory speak for it didn't matter if some people got rich, that wealth would trickle down to others? I don't believe it ever existed.

More that by freeing up the rich (or more properly capital) - by reducing tax, regulations, union power etc - you would have an overall increase in wealth, the benefits which would be felt across society.

 

[TopCat]

No-one has said it's irrelevant, they've said it's not the be all and end all, which is a perfectly fair comment. Engels himself acknowledged (in "The Condition of the Working Class in England") that working class women bore a double burden - that of productive AND reproductive labour. It's about class AND sex AND race.

Ok so how do potential and actual female CEO's fit into this? I think Engels would have said they are the class enemy and that they oppress far more than are oppressed as a result of their sex.

 

[friendofdorothy]

More that by freeing up the rich (or more properly capital) - by reducing tax, regulations, union power etc - you would have an overall increase in wealth, the benefits which would be felt across society.

yes. like I said a Tory idea with nothing to do with women or changing patriachal culture

 

[redsquirrel]

yes. like I said a Tory idea with nothing to do with women or changing patriachal culture

Well I think Gramsci is trying to draw the analogy between the trickle down wealth and a trickle down of social capital, i.e. just as freeing the up ability of capital/bosses to gain economic capital didn't help most people, ensuring a gender equality of bosses won't see a trickle down of gender equality for most people.

Note I'm not saying I agree with the analogy, or that I think it is a good one, just how (I think) it is connected to the recent discussion.

 

[TopCat]

Well I think Gramsci is trying to draw the analogy between the trickle down wealth and a trickle down of social capital, i.e. just as freeing the up ability of capital/bosses to gain economic capital didn't help most people, ensuring a gender equality of bosses won't see a trickle down of gender equality for most people.

Note I'm not saying I agree with the analogy, or that I think it is a good one, just how (I think) it is connected to the recent discussion.

It's certainly worthy of inclusion and debate.

 

[friendofdorothy]

Well I think Gramsci is trying to draw the analogy between the trickle down wealth and a trickle down of social capital, i.e. just as freeing the up ability of capital/bosses to gain economic capital didn't help most people, ensuring a gender equality of bosses won't see a trickle down of gender equality for most people.

Note I'm not saying I agree with the analogy, or that I think it is a good one, just how (I think) it is connected to the recent discussion.

Thanks I know what he said and I disagreed with it. He has used the 'trickle down' argument on threads about women before, I disagreed then too.

 

[TopCat]

Thanks I know what he said and I disagreed with it. He has used the 'trickle down' argument on threads about women before, I disagreed then too.

Why do you disagree? If you have posted on this please signpost me.

 

[scifisam]

Ok so how do potential and actual female CEO's fit into this? I think Engels would have said they are the class enemy and that they oppress far more than are oppressed as a result of their sex.

Oh FFS. Do you even know what you're doing here?

Women, know your place!

 

[TopCat]

Oh FFS. Do you even know what you're doing here?

Women, know your place!

Please elucidate?

 

[weepiper]

Any ideas on feminism?

Anyone who does is looking at this and seeing it's turned into the TopCat show and thinking what's the point.

 

[TopCat]

Leave you to it then. Save you running to Mummy (FM) and screaming ban him again.

 

[Sweet FA]

Not trying to swerve. Can see why it might come across like that. It was more just digging a poster who has a very good knowledge of history and class struggle and then votes Green.
But not fair and apols to VP. Will answer when I finish work.

I respect your politics and I generally rate your posts. I don't get you on feminist threads though. Is this all re certain women posters and their views re trans? Manter asked you about the post first and I was kind of just repeating what she said really. You didn't reply to her though.

 

[TopCat]

I respect your politics and I generally rate your posts. I don't get you on feminist threads though. Is this all re certain women posters and their views re trans? Manter asked you about the post first and I was kind of just repeating what she said really. You didn't reply to her though.

Discuss elsewhere?

 

[friendofdorothy]

Why do you disagree? If you have posted on this please signpost me.

#428
Stop wasting our time. This thread isn't about class issues, isn't about you and you don't listen. You sucking all the air out of this good discussion.
I'm feeling polite. Now fuck off.

 

[Poot]

This is excruciating.

TopCat another poster brought up a similar argument several pages back. We discussed it at length then. Please feel free to read it at your leisure.

And stop spouting Engels. It's really not helpful here.

 

[Manter]

I respect your politics and I generally rate your posts. I don't get you on feminist threads though. Is this all re certain women posters and their views re trans? Manter asked you about the post first and I was kind of just repeating what she said really. You didn't reply to her though.

The women trying to debate on here have a very wide range of views on trans issues, so I suspect this is just about women.

 

[Gramsci]

I'm not saying adventure playgrounds aren't important. I am challenging the idea that a world designed for men is centred on the workplace. And the examples given so often imply that womenbosses are failing other women by not being better at the things men notice.

On the social/personal examples given on this thread, men have talked about new insights into how women might have experienced (eg) rave culture or shopping or public transport. Our putative comrades have ignored these.

For them, challenging capitalism is far more important than challenging the effects of patriarchy. This idea diminishes and minimises the place of women in the world because it assumes that women are equally badly treated by the system. We're not. The system doesn't even recognise the differences in our bodies except where those differences can be further exploited or abused.

As Red Cat suggests dismantling capitalism seem to be a masculine way of thinking. The system is designed for men.

If your referring to my posts of my three recent examples one has been from the workplace and two not (adventure playground and my old housing Coop).

So in practice most of my (limited) political activity has not been challenging capitalism in the workplace.

To repeat in my old housing Coop , I and a few others, did manage to argue for and achieve equal numbers of men and women in the housing Coop. It had been disproportionately male and run by men. Some of them somewhat macho.

This was a cultural change for the better. Which took time.

On adventure playgrounds. This is about campaigning for childcare. This imo is just as important as workplace struggles. As childcare does still fall on women more as a responsibility trying to keep adventure playground open is going to help local women.

 

[ViolentPanda]

I'm finding it hard to be lectured on this by a Green Party supporter.

I'm a Green Anarcho-Communist. You got a problem with that?

 

[ViolentPanda]

This thread is littered with personally driven beef and has many play the man not the ball instances. Your request to me to play the ball not the man as if I was the first is quite something.

I have no beef with you. I corrected you, and mentioned Engels' position. If you disagree, then elucidate your disagreement. Don't make snide remarks. It doesn't suit you.