Feminism and a world designed for men

[mango5]

Does getting basic equality include a reduction in #metoo type incidents? I’d take that over an adventure playground any day.

 

[TopCat]

To make it clear. On basic equal rights level across society men and women should have equal pay for same job, CEOs , owners of business should be fifty fifty men and women.

This is straightforward equal rights.

What I take issue with is when this gets mixed in with idea that if women were properly represented in jobs with social power things would improve for women in general. spanglechick gave one example, Winot another.

Its the trickle down effect.

Another example from real life. I've been involved in trying to save an adventure playground. Council regeneration department says it no longer needed and can be sold off to developer. Lambeth council has high proportion of women in senior positions. Two key officers running Regen are women. This hasn't meant that Regen has been more sympathetic. I had a single mother , struggling, tell me that the adventure playground was invaluable. Gave her time for herself and her child a safe place to play.

So I don't believe getting underrepresented groups into senior positions will make that much difference beyond getting basic equality.

Gramsci Be proud of your efforts getting Gordon Grove adventure playground back into operation. It makes a big difference to a lot of working class women in Loughborough.

 

[Red Cat]

Does getting basic equality include a reduction in #metoo type incidents? I’d take that over an adventure playground any day.

I think both are really important. Adventure playgrounds are important for female children to develop physical skills, to make things in groups, to develop relationships with adults who aren't parents, to give parents a break because there are other adults involved. The local park is in no way comparable. There's only one adventure playground in Birmingham that's miles away from us and I considered it a real lack for everyone.

 

[TopCat]

I think both are really important. Adventure playgrounds are important for female children to develop physical skills, to make things in groups, to develop relationships with adults who aren't parents, to give parents a break because there are other adults involved. The local park is in no way comparable. There's only one adventure playground in Birmingham that's miles away from us and I considered it a real lack for everyone.

The adventure playground in Battersea Park used to have me there all day for free. This allowed my mum to do cleaning jobs (for the rich) and get out from under debt and pressure.

 

[Poot]

I think both are really important. Adventure playgrounds are important for female children to develop physical skills, to make things in groups, to develop relationships with adults who aren't parents, to give parents a break because there are other adults involved. The local park is in no way comparable. There's only one adventure playground in Birmingham that's miles away from us and I considered it a real lack for everyone.

I hadn't considered that there was a distinction before. What does an adventure playground actually have (because I suspect that there aren't any around here either! )

 

[Red Cat]

I hadn't considered that there was a distinction before. What does an adventure playground actually have (because I suspect that there aren't any around here either! )

I have to leave the house now, here's one in Germany I was particularly impressed by one that I found online years ago, that should explain what they can be, the children involved in constructing them:

Things We Like:What Happens When Children Build Their Own Three-Story Playgrounds? | Public Workshop

There's probably a good history on them somewhere, lots of very interesting observations made about children's competence and capacity to self direct their own learning and learning by working in groups and assessing risks themselves in that context. There was something called the Peckham Experiment, I found this on it:

The Pioneer Health Foundation

 

[Red Cat]

I don't think we can consider women's social role without (re) thinking conceptualisations of childhood.

 

[Poot]

That looks *incredible* Red Cat and certainly better than watching my daughter wait patiently for the noisy kids to finish on the roundabout!

 

[mango5]

I'm not saying adventure playgrounds aren't important. I am challenging the idea that a world designed for men is centred on the workplace. And the examples given so often imply that womenbosses are failing other women by not being better at the things men notice.

On the social/personal examples given on this thread, men have talked about new insights into how women might have experienced (eg) rave culture or shopping or public transport. Our putative comrades have ignored these.

For them, challenging capitalism is far more important than challenging the effects of patriarchy. This idea diminishes and minimises the place of women in the world because it assumes that women are equally badly treated by the system. We're not. The system doesn't even recognise the differences in our bodies except where those differences can be further exploited or abused.

As Red Cat suggests dismantling capitalism seem to be a masculine way of thinking. The system is designed for men.

 

[Red Cat]

The adventure playground in Battersea Park used to have me there all day for free. This allowed my mum to do cleaning jobs (for the rich) and get out from under debt and pressure.

I think Battersea was where the first one o'clock club was too, perhaps they were linked? These were originally to support mothers, now the emphasis is on supporting child development.

 

[Red Cat]

I'm not saying adventure playgrounds aren't important. I am challenging the idea that a world designed for men is centred on the workplace. And the examples given so often imply that womenbosses are failing other women by not being better at the things men notice.

On the social/personal examples given on this thread, men have talked about new insights into how women might have experienced (eg) rave culture or shopping or public transport. Our putative comrades have ignored these.

For them, challenging capitalism is far more important than challenging the effects of patriarchy. This idea diminishes and minimises the place of women in the world because it assumes that women are equally badly treated by the system. We're not. The system doesn't even recognise the differences in our bodies except where those differences can be further exploited or abused.

As Red Cat suggests dismantling capitalism seem to be a masculine way of thinking. The system is designed for men.

I'll have a think about this but I'm in and out (looking after children and sick partner!) and should be working on a paper, so not much time for dedicated thinking about other things.

 

[TopCat]

I think Battersea was where the first one o'clock club was too, perhaps they were linked? These were originally to support mothers, now the emphasis is on supporting child development.

I'm not sure about the 1 o'clock club. I do remember how pleased my mum was though (as they took kids for the whole day, for free) as she had been told not to bring me with her to a cleaning job by some Chelsea type.

 

[Gramsci]

I hadn't considered that there was a distinction before. What does an adventure playground actually have (because I suspect that there aren't any around here either! )

Bit more background here about the distinction.

Grove Adventure Playground fights for its survival – open day coming up on Sat 16th Feb 2019

( Update looks like Council have finally agree to not build on the land)

 

[weepiper]

I think this is a London thing. I can't think of anything like it at all in Scotland - what we call an 'adventure playground' here is not staffed, it's just a big playground with large rustic climbing equipment and maybe a sandpit and a zipline. And they don't exist in cities at all, they're a country park thing.

 

[TopCat]

As Red Cat suggests dismantling capitalism seem to be a masculine way of thinking. The system is designed for men.

This rather ignores the huge efforts of so many women who have given their all to try and dismantle capitalism. Why do this?

 

[Pickman's model]

I'm not saying adventure playgrounds aren't important. I am challenging the idea that a world designed for men is centred on the workplace. And the examples given so often imply that womenbosses are failing other women by not being better at the things men notice.

On the social/personal examples given on this thread, men have talked about new insights into how women might have experienced (eg) rave culture or shopping or public transport. Our putative comrades have ignored these.

For them, challenging capitalism is far more important than challenging the effects of patriarchy. This idea diminishes and minimises the place of women in the world because it assumes that women are equally badly treated by the system. We're not. The system doesn't even recognise the differences in our bodies except where those differences can be further exploited or abused.

As Red Cat suggests dismantling capitalism seem to be a masculine way of thinking. The system is designed for men.

It'd be nice if you acknowledged the misreading you made of my posts, tho I won't hold my breath. It's utterly bizarre how you laud men who have posted about how women might have experienced rave culture, shopping and public transport but lay into Gramsci and me because we've posted about the workplace. Your double standards here should be obvious even to you, because if you're honest about wanting to look at women's experiences in a world designed for men in the round you'd have raised at some point the absence of the workplace from their analyses. It's curious you seem to separate experiences of shopping from experiences under capitalism as consumption a very core aspect of capitalism. It's the flip side of production after all, and the focus of activity in so many workplaces which produce advertising, design shops, work out how goods should be displayed etc.

A separation of capitalism from patriarchy is, I submit, problematic as the two are so intertwined. What damages one damages the other. The destruction of the current mode of production, capitalism might not uproot and destroy patriarchy would yet deal it a mighty blow and vice versa.

In addition, you only brought up my focus on the workplace after I answered the points you made in response to purenarcotic. Strange that. If it was a genuine criticism rather than shifting the goalposts you'd have mentioned it to pn. I don't know the motive behind the attitude you've taken to me and Gramsci on this thread but I don't think they're really about what we've said. I think you've another reason for acting as you have. I won't continue on this thread which imo you're using for your own purposes rather than a genuine exploration of very real and very important issues as I don't want to engage further with your peculiar beef.

 

[Manter]

It might be that some of the anti patriarchal effects of having 51% female management aren’t felt by men.

@gramsci’s womanboss might have been pretty good at dealing with support with menopause.

Which, as an aside:

I work in a traditionally somewhat better sector for representation (secondary education) - but increasingly (over the last thirty-ish years) there is a mystifying lack of post menopausal women. As schools have become run more as businesses, there seems to be no place for The Crone, unless she is Senior Management or an ancillary worker (LSA, Catering, Admin).

As an aside, I wish there were more positive images of elder women in media, public imagination and so on (not just crone/invisible or looks really young/still hot)

 

[Red Cat]

This rather ignores the huge efforts of so many women who have given their all to try and dismantle capitalism. Why do this?

I was referring to the word dismantle really! Not ignoring the women who focus on class politics as a means of challenging women's oppression.

 

[Red Cat]

I think this is a London thing. I can't think of anything like it at all in Scotland - what we call an 'adventure playground' here is not staffed, it's just a big playground with large rustic climbing equipment and maybe a sandpit and a zipline. And they don't exist in cities at all, they're a country park thing.

That's everywhere and a more modern definition of a top-down provided playground. This is quite interesting on the history of definitions:

Welcome to the Home of British Adventure Play: An internet resource for those interested in and passionate about adventure play

 

[Red Cat]

I'm not saying adventure playgrounds aren't important. I am challenging the idea that a world designed for men is centred on the workplace. And the examples given so often imply that womenbosses are failing other women by not being better at the things men notice.

On the social/personal examples given on this thread, men have talked about new insights into how women might have experienced (eg) rave culture or shopping or public transport. Our putative comrades have ignored these.

For them, challenging capitalism is far more important than challenging the effects of patriarchy. This idea diminishes and minimises the place of women in the world because it assumes that women are equally badly treated by the system. We're not. The system doesn't even recognise the differences in our bodies except where those differences can be further exploited or abused.

As Red Cat suggests dismantling capitalism seem to be a masculine way of thinking. The system is designed for men.

I've read this a few times and tbh I'm not sure what you're saying.

There are various theories of women's oppression, only some emphasise patriarchy, and not all are feminist in that sense. Do you think that a preference for class politics means that women are colluding with men in their own oppression?

 

[Sweet FA]

I wonder about education, especially primary. You'd think that with well over half being women that there would be a change. About 75% of its teachers are women, but men are promoted faster and are disproportionally in senior positions.

Have you got references for that? Would be really interested in seeing it.

 

[mango5]

Do you think that a preference for class politics means that women are colluding with men in their own oppression?

Not at all.

I would like to understand how a preference for class politics is a better strategy for responding to a world designed for men than ones which don't prioritise it. The class struggle is, perhaps, just as 'designed for men' as the rest of the world.

I think TopCat and I spent a lot of time at the Battersea Park adventure playground in the same decade, for similar reasons. I had safety and relative freedom there. I bet plenty of other young women didn't. #metoo

 

[JuanTwoThree]

Have you got references for that? Would be really interested in seeing it.

Where are all the female headteachers?

Men get promoted more quickly, and 4 other findings from new school leadership research

 

[Sweet FA]

Where are all the female headteachers?

Men get promoted more quickly, and 4 other findings from new school leadership research

Thanks - I thought there'd be a split between primary & secondary heads. I work in primary and for many years the only men in the building were me, the caretaker and one of the cleaners. I've only ever worked under women - heads, deputies, assistant heads, year group leaders etc. I've never been arsed about being a manager but it's always assumed (and I mean always) that the only reason I'm teaching in primary is so I can become a boss.

 

[ViolentPanda]

You’re talking about capitalism under patriarchy though. If we ditch patriarchy, what happens to capitalism?

It would be forced to mutate quickly, in order to continue exploiting women as it already does. Women staff most enterprises in Special Economic Zones, women by far outnumber men, in terms of humans trafficked for sex. Women do reproductive labour. Women vastly outnumber men when it comes to unpaid caring responsibilities. Possibly - and hopefully - capitalism would decline and wither on the vine.

 

[ViolentPanda]

It could still continue. I don't think patriarchy is essential for capitalism.

Patriarchy engenders - quite literally - capitalism.

 

[ViolentPanda]

To make it clear. On basic equal rights level across society men and women should have equal pay for same job, CEOs , owners of business should be fifty fifty men and women.

This is straightforward equal rights.

What I take issue with is when this gets mixed in with idea that if women were properly represented in jobs with social power things would improve for women in general. spanglechick gave one example, Winot another.

Its the trickle down effect.

"Trickle down" as policy AND practice, doesn't work well enough to even qualify as being fucked up. It's absolute shit.

Another example from real life. I've been involved in trying to save an adventure playground. Council regeneration department says it no longer needed and can be sold off to developer. Lambeth council has high proportion of women in senior positions. Two key officers running Regen are women.

Neither Sharpe nor Foster have worked for Lambeth for more than 6 months, although Sharpe "moved sideways" to Homes for Lambeth, and from long observation of both, they have a "more male than the males" approach to their jobs.

This hasn't meant that Regen has been more sympathetic. I had a single mother , struggling, tell me that the adventure playground was invaluable. Gave her time for herself and her child a safe place to play.

So I don't believe getting underrepresented groups into senior positions will make that much difference beyond getting basic equality.

TBF, I think you're kind of missing the plain fact that while those officers may be women, neither of them are or have been single mothers, and both come from - and maintain - comfortable upper-middle class backgrounds. They barely see working class women as people. I've sat in numerous meetings with them. Their contempt for estate dwellers, people in temporary accommodation, women in refuges etc, has always been palpable.

 

[ViolentPanda]

The adventure playground in Battersea Park used to have me there all day for free. This allowed my mum to do cleaning jobs (for the rich) and get out from under debt and pressure.

It now charges an entrance fee.

 

[TopCat]

It now charges an entrance fee.

Yeah. Children's Services manager Kathy Tracey brought the charges in. They took all of the adventure play stuff out too and replaced it with top down crap. How much is it now?

 

[TopCat]

But hey class is irrelevant apparently.