England Cricket 2022
- Thread starter RileyOBlimey
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littlebabyjesus
one of Maxwell's demons
I do think Root is a poor captain, and yes, someone else should get a go.
But this poor team has been many years in the making. Changing captain won't change the fact that the England system has only produced one proven quality test batter in the last decade.
Need to be gracious in defeat, though. This was no fluke. West Indies have very similar problems. Like England, they keep picking underperforming batters because there is nobody else. But in the end the team with the better batting character won out.
But this poor team has been many years in the making. Changing captain won't change the fact that the England system has only produced one proven quality test batter in the last decade.
Need to be gracious in defeat, though. This was no fluke. West Indies have very similar problems. Like England, they keep picking underperforming batters because there is nobody else. But in the end the team with the better batting character won out.
GarveyLives
Well-Known Member
It is often difficult to work out who has the greater sense of arrogant self-entitlement and lack of respect for opponents - the English cricket team ... or its supporters.
Notwithstanding the English cricket team's excellence in 'body language' - which, for some, seems to be of even greater importance than the pre-Sky Sports coverage era skills of batting, bowling and fielding - here are some versions of what cricket writers actually saw happen during the series:
Source: Kraigg Brathwaite takes pride as West Indies triumph with full team performance, Cameron Ponsonby, 27 March 2022
Source: West Indies have proved cricket remains best route to Caribbean sporting stardom, Tim Wigmore, Telegraph Online, 27 March 2022
Source: West Indies’ Roach mops up England tail to help seal series triumph, Ali Martin, Guardian Online, 27 March 2022
One cannot help thinking that the Caribbean is simply better off with its dignity and self-respect and without the colonial arrogance of the English cricket team, its fans ... and its Royal family.
(Source: as stated in image)
It is often difficult to work out who has the greater sense of arrogant self-entitlement and lack of respect for opponents - the English cricket team ... or its supporters.
Notwithstanding the English cricket team's excellence in 'body language' - which, for some, seems to be of even greater importance than the pre-Sky Sports coverage era skills of batting, bowling and fielding - here are some versions of what cricket writers actually saw happen during the series:
Source: Kraigg Brathwaite takes pride as West Indies triumph with full team performance, Cameron Ponsonby, 27 March 2022
Source: West Indies have proved cricket remains best route to Caribbean sporting stardom, Tim Wigmore, Telegraph Online, 27 March 2022
Source: West Indies’ Roach mops up England tail to help seal series triumph, Ali Martin, Guardian Online, 27 March 2022
One cannot help thinking that the Caribbean is simply better off with its dignity and self-respect and without the colonial arrogance of the English cricket team, its fans ... and its Royal family.
(Source: as stated in image)
That's an absolutely batshit post, you're aware of that right?
This thread's about cricket. The royal lickspittle threads >>>>> atta way.
SpookyFrank
A cheap source of teeth for aquarium gravel
Finally he posts something besides a load of links and a giant picture of Cressida Dick.
Pity it's a load of old bollocks.
littlebabyjesus
one of Maxwell's demons
The West Indies cricket team is very average at the moment. That's an uncontroversial sporting judgement, and this series win hasn't changed that. So happens that England are also very average at the moment, so the teams are evenly matched (I said this on here before the series started, btw, arrogant fucker that I am). The team that showed the greater fight and character in the final test is the one that won.
The reasons for the decline in WI cricket over the last 30 years are multiple, but mostly involve incompetent administration at all levels. That's a sorry story that is worth examining. Plenty of West Indian cricket fans have been exasperated by it for a long time - in a not entirely dissimilar fashion to the exasperation of England fans with England's incompetent administration at all levels.
Not sure where GarveyLives is going with any of this. I grew up in a time when it was expected that England would be totally outclassed by West Indies. Most of my cricketing heroes as a kid were West Indians. A change in that expectation isn't down to colonial arrogance.
The reasons for the decline in WI cricket over the last 30 years are multiple, but mostly involve incompetent administration at all levels. That's a sorry story that is worth examining. Plenty of West Indian cricket fans have been exasperated by it for a long time - in a not entirely dissimilar fashion to the exasperation of England fans with England's incompetent administration at all levels.
Not sure where GarveyLives is going with any of this. I grew up in a time when it was expected that England would be totally outclassed by West Indies. Most of my cricketing heroes as a kid were West Indians. A change in that expectation isn't down to colonial arrogance.
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steeplejack
trapped lbw for a duck
I do think people are underselling / underestimating West Indies a bit.
This is the best West Indies team seen for quite a while, and it has been a few years in the making. It's a move towards team-work and togetherness that previous sides just didn't have. Since the break up of the dominant West Indies team in the early-mid 90s, the side has relied on a few superstars (late Ambrose & Walsh, Lara, Gayle) pulling through a team of otherwise bang average players leavened with more than the occasional impostor. This team is focused on a collective success again rather than indivdual performances papering over the big cracks elsewhere. As the memories of one of the best-ever Test sides fade (WI from 76- about 1991 with the remnants of that team credible for a few years beyond that period) perhaps the constant unhelpful comparison of the present day team with the guys from that time falls away, too.
England, simply, are pish. It will take 3-5 years and a detailed and credible plan being executed meticulously for the side to pull out of what seems a protracted tailspin. Root will surely be done away with in the next few weeks, and a complete overhaul of the Test set up and the county game is required. Root is key as a batsman but a new captain and much freshened up approach is required. The sacking of the coaching staff and the leaving behind of senior pros after the Ashes debacle was supposed to be the big re-set, but few believed it to be anything other than a PR exercise. However, it's much like British Leyland turmpeting the replacing of the Morris Marina, with the Morris Ital. The same old failings, insecurities and mental weaknesses were horribly on display in the third test coupled with deluded post-match ramblings from Root, Collingwood & Tresco.
England are at their lowest ebb since the horror show teams of the late 80s. It will take quite a whle to turn around and the fans will just have to stick with it.
This is the best West Indies team seen for quite a while, and it has been a few years in the making. It's a move towards team-work and togetherness that previous sides just didn't have. Since the break up of the dominant West Indies team in the early-mid 90s, the side has relied on a few superstars (late Ambrose & Walsh, Lara, Gayle) pulling through a team of otherwise bang average players leavened with more than the occasional impostor. This team is focused on a collective success again rather than indivdual performances papering over the big cracks elsewhere. As the memories of one of the best-ever Test sides fade (WI from 76- about 1991 with the remnants of that team credible for a few years beyond that period) perhaps the constant unhelpful comparison of the present day team with the guys from that time falls away, too.
England, simply, are pish. It will take 3-5 years and a detailed and credible plan being executed meticulously for the side to pull out of what seems a protracted tailspin. Root will surely be done away with in the next few weeks, and a complete overhaul of the Test set up and the county game is required. Root is key as a batsman but a new captain and much freshened up approach is required. The sacking of the coaching staff and the leaving behind of senior pros after the Ashes debacle was supposed to be the big re-set, but few believed it to be anything other than a PR exercise. However, it's much like British Leyland turmpeting the replacing of the Morris Marina, with the Morris Ital. The same old failings, insecurities and mental weaknesses were horribly on display in the third test coupled with deluded post-match ramblings from Root, Collingwood & Tresco.
England are at their lowest ebb since the horror show teams of the late 80s. It will take quite a whle to turn around and the fans will just have to stick with it.
littlebabyjesus
one of Maxwell's demons
This WI team is similar to England - some good bowling but ordinary batting. You only have to look at the top order batting averages to see that. The likes of Blackwood, Brooks and Campbell look good enough but their numbers are awful, and the same goes for those like Hope or Chase who have recently been jettisoned - it's a very similar story to England's top order over the last few years.
You're right that comparisons with the greats of the past aren't helpful. But if I were a Windies fan, I wouldn't read too much into this result on its own. They've had a few false dawns before. And to be brutally honest, a better team than England might have punished WI for their mistakes in this match, such as the way they failed to finish off 10 and 11 in the first innings.
You're right that comparisons with the greats of the past aren't helpful. But if I were a Windies fan, I wouldn't read too much into this result on its own. They've had a few false dawns before. And to be brutally honest, a better team than England might have punished WI for their mistakes in this match, such as the way they failed to finish off 10 and 11 in the first innings.
Monkeygrinder's Organ
Dodgy geezer swilling vapid lager
I'd agree the Windies aren't a great team but they do at least have the look of a team that's starting to move in the right direction, and that's despite having some massive disadvantages compared to England, most obviously with the finances and players heading off to play T20. England just go from bad to worse though don't they, the batting in that last test wouldn't have been particularly creditable even against Holding, Marshall , Garner etc let alone the current WI team.
littlebabyjesus
one of Maxwell's demons
Out of the test championship teams, if you were making two divisions, I suggest that they would be as follows:
first div definites:
NZ
Aus
Ind
second div definites:
WI
England
SL
Ban
Pakistan and South Africa could arguably be in either division. Think I'd put SA in the first div and Pak in the second.
first div definites:
NZ
Aus
Ind
second div definites:
WI
England
SL
Ban
Pakistan and South Africa could arguably be in either division. Think I'd put SA in the first div and Pak in the second.
paulhackett
voiced by strother martin
Broad sounds the most likely even knowing there would be a lifespan. Like Keith Fletcher but without any of the captaincy experience. Or Bobby Simpson during the Packer years. That said, they can't pick an absolute passenger in Morgan, or someone who definitely is only in the team as skipper. Picking Broad would have interesting knock on effect if Anderson, Archer, Wood, Stokes, Broad, Mahmood, Robinson etc. were all fit and available. They need to pick batters in the right position and give them a run. A crease occupier who averages in the low 30s, if it allows the rest of the batters time away from the new ball will do for me. Two of them if needs be, and we can get back to complaining about drawing and boredom.
Monkeygrinder's Organ
Dodgy geezer swilling vapid lager
You'd think Anderson would be the obvious loser from a Broad captaincy wouldn't you. I don't think the two of them will be selected together many more times.
planetgeli
There's no future in England's dreaming
They will never offer Broad the captaincy. It'll be Stokes by default.
We do have a good bowling line up. It's just not the one that was sent to the West Indies. I'd love them all to be fit.
Because we can't bat, so we need to bowl. Those second innings dismissals. Like LBJ said, Lees aside (who was playing correctly, if only by limitation) none were excusable. But something about Bairstow's rankled most and epitomised the deficit in mind set England seem to have. Frustratingly, along with Lees, he'd done everything right for 20 overs or so. Dug out the mess of 31-4. Never tried an expansive shot, just nudged the odd run, got to within touching distance of parity. Ball about to go soft and die.
And then takes the wildest swing out of nowhere to a ball six inches off the stumps he should have been defending.
None of the Test teams better than England would have done that having got themselves in that situation. It was brainless.
We do have a good bowling line up. It's just not the one that was sent to the West Indies. I'd love them all to be fit.
Because we can't bat, so we need to bowl. Those second innings dismissals. Like LBJ said, Lees aside (who was playing correctly, if only by limitation) none were excusable. But something about Bairstow's rankled most and epitomised the deficit in mind set England seem to have. Frustratingly, along with Lees, he'd done everything right for 20 overs or so. Dug out the mess of 31-4. Never tried an expansive shot, just nudged the odd run, got to within touching distance of parity. Ball about to go soft and die.
And then takes the wildest swing out of nowhere to a ball six inches off the stumps he should have been defending.
None of the Test teams better than England would have done that having got themselves in that situation. It was brainless.
littlebabyjesus
one of Maxwell's demons
I think it will be Stokes by default. No idea if that's a good idea or not.
In hindsight, it could have been an idea to give Broad the captaincy before the Ashes. It will be one hell of a backtrack to bring him back as captain after dropping him for this tour.
In hindsight, it could have been an idea to give Broad the captaincy before the Ashes. It will be one hell of a backtrack to bring him back as captain after dropping him for this tour.
steeplejack
trapped lbw for a duck
Someone for the summer would be fine- Broad, Stokes, whoever- even if it's on the understanding that it's max 2 series whilst the new behind the scenes set up considers a credible alternative. Everything changing all at once brings its own problems, but just ploughing on regardless is no use.
We're a long way from the home WI summer of 1988 at least- four captains in one summer with one of them being Chris Cowdrey, appointed on the basis that he had no untidy facial hair and his father was Colin Cowdrey.
We're a long way from the home WI summer of 1988 at least- four captains in one summer with one of them being Chris Cowdrey, appointed on the basis that he had no untidy facial hair and his father was Colin Cowdrey.
Monkeygrinder's Organ
Dodgy geezer swilling vapid lager
I wonder if in the absence of an obvious candidate there's a case to be made for depowering the captaincy role a little bit. Obviously the captaincy is more important in cricket than most other sports but there's no rule that says the captain has to be the mighty hero remoulding the team in his own image is there. Couldn't he just be the one who sets the fields etc? I can see the arguments against but it's not like the current approach is working is it and captain's often seem a bit crushed under the pressure.
Zapp Brannigan
Built like a steakhouse, handles like a bistro
Should be Broad. Stokes already has an enormous workload as all-rounder, and none of the batters have really put forward their credentials. A short term appointment to settle the ship would be fine by me - Broad and Anderson should still be 100% involved, even if they're not going to play multiple back to back tests as a pair. There are so many options for seam bowling (depending on fitness and form) but the selection for the WI tour lacked leadership; should have been Woakes but he was feeling for form every bit as much as the guys with only a handful of caps.
Monkeygrinder's Organ
Dodgy geezer swilling vapid lager
I think with Woakes he's had so many tries overseas now you have to think it's a case of him just not being able to do it outside English conditions rather than being out of form. Apparently the only bowler with a worse overseas record (subject to whatever the minimum overs requirement is) is Paul Collingwood, which is pretty damning given he wasn't even a batting all-rounder really, more a batsman who could send down a few overs when required. I'd leave him out now tbh, even if that provokes a round of Curran-based rage in littlebabyjesus.
littlebabyjesus
one of Maxwell's demons
Leaving out Woakes doesn't mean you bring back Curran. 
I think the selection for WI was just weird tbh. Woakes was very poor in Aus. Selecting him to lead the attack in such bad form was setting him up to fail. His speeds are down and when that happens, he looks about as effective as Curran. Selection of Overton was also weird, although he only played because of injuries.
I think the selection for WI was just weird tbh. Woakes was very poor in Aus. Selecting him to lead the attack in such bad form was setting him up to fail. His speeds are down and when that happens, he looks about as effective as Curran. Selection of Overton was also weird, although he only played because of injuries.
Zapp Brannigan
Built like a steakhouse, handles like a bistro
Collingwood was a middle innings trundler, old ball to dry up runs by not giving batters any pace to work with. Woakes is a new ball/first change specialist, front line bowler - that really is a damning stat.
Broad &/or Anderson, plus Wood/Archer/Stone for pace, plus Woakes/Mahmood/Robinson/Overton, plus Stokes. We're not short of numbers, experience and ability, it's just a case of fitness and finding the right balance. The WI attack was woeful, expecting bowlers new to the setup to come in and perform like old hands - we're wasting the latter years of Broad and Anderson, they should be playing alongside the new blood until retirement. At which point the "new" guys are 40+ caps in and ready to take the mantle of leading the attack.
Monkeygrinder's Organ
Dodgy geezer swilling vapid lager
Yeah if everyone is fit it's not a bad set of bowling options. Whoever it is would look a lot better if they weren't continually having to defend 200 or less wouldn't they - the bowling isnt really where the problem is.
cough. The first two yes. But ability? That's the main issue here. They only have only two decent players in the entire team. Ie, two players who'd get a game for Aus or NZ. Which is really really sad.
planetgeli
There's no future in England's dreaming
Robinson has 40 wickets in 9 tests. Archer took 22 wickets (and nearly killed Steve Smith) in an Ashes series before being immediately ruined by Root bowling him 42 overs in an innings.
You're questioning their ability?
And Olly Stone is on the verge of chucking it all in btw. Can't beat injury.
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littlebabyjesus
one of Maxwell's demons
Robinson outbowled both Anderson and Broad last summer. He's better than ok.
You may be right about Archer. Let's hope not.
Wood keeps breaking down but he was excellent in the Ashes. Finished with good numbers and deserved better.
Both Mahmood and Fisher looked the part on debut, as did Robinson last year.
That's the key difference for me. New bowlers come in and look up for it from their first match. New batters come in and really struggle to jump the level.
I don't know how you solve that. It's a systemic problem. But plenty of batters have hit the ground running in test cricket in the past. Why they are no longer doing so and how you change that is the dilemma.
Monkeygrinder's Organ
Dodgy geezer swilling vapid lager
Well they're mostly batsmen with less than stellar records in county cricket to start with aren't they. If you bring in someone with a first class average of 35 you can't be too surprised when they average less in test cricket. I know there have been exceptions but it's a pretty long shot.
And then England also make batsmen worse as well. Someone like Pope looked the part at first and has definitely regressed. Even Dom Sibley was the grinder we definitely needed for a little bit.
