Elon Musk - news and discussion

[littlebabyjesus]

He wants less government of him. He doesn't care in the slightest about more government on say, the Mexican border, or against trans people. I really can't stress enough you should not be reading what he says, you should be watching what he does.

Yes, exactly this. I came to post to say this. R/w 'libertarians', to the exent that they are ever coherent, which is rarely, never actually want the state to stand to one side and allow the poor to take from the rich.

 

[Rob Ray]

As teuchter has said it's not meaningless whether he meant it or not though in terms of what it means for wider society if someone can covertly or openly perform a fascist salute on a mainstream political stage like that or not.

I mean, they quite obviously can. Even if you only take him meaning it as a hypothetical reality, the reaction we're seeing now, including your own, would be the same. Elon Musk, in that moment, did have the power to do a near-perfect Nazi salute in front of hundreds of millions of people without serious consequence. That's just a straightforward fact, regardless of his actual intentions.

 

[JimW]

The mark of a corporate fascist is someone who maximises the extent, reach and freedom to operate of their business empire while making a direct accomodation with the State's needs. Which he does. As Mussolini puts it:

"Fascism should more appropriately be called Corporatism because it is a merger of state and corporate power."

Corporate power meant something else in the Italian context of the time, it included a sort of guild system. The quote itself is pretty dubious too, apparently: Mussolini on the Corporate State

 

[editor]

Because there were some fair points in there

I won't disrupt this thread but I've posted my concerns about people posting up swathes of AI content in political discussions here:

Should AI copy and paste responses be banned from political discussions here?

There's been a growing number of people copying and pasting swathes of AI content in response to posts here. Although that might be a fun in some threads (I've done it a couple of times in the past), I personally think it's unacceptable when it comes to serious political discussion...

www.urban75.net

 

[inva]

I mean, they quite obviously can. Even if you only take him meaning it as a hypothetical reality, the reaction we're seeing now, including your own, would be the same. Elon Musk, in that moment, did have the power to do a near-perfect Nazi salute in front of hundreds of millions of people without serious consequence. That's just a straightforward fact, regardless of his actual intentions.

But you can't disregard his intentions (or at least what we interpret them as) because that determines whether there should be any consequences or not.

 

[Yossarian]

Even if he lost 90% of his wealth (which, let's face it, would mean we're all dead) then he still has $43 billion.

I think we might see Musk get a lot poorer and live to tell the tale - his net worth was around $25 billion five years ago, could easily return to that level or lower if investors decide Tesla isn't really worth as much as the next 25 most valuable automakers combined

 

[Spymaster]

View attachment 460827

Netanyahu is a Nazi.

 

[littlebabyjesus]

I think we might see Musk get a lot poorer and live to tell the tale - his net worth was around $25 billion five years ago, could easily return to that level or lower if investors decide Tesla isn't really worth as much as the next 25 most valuable automakers combined

He's lost more than that just with the devaluation of Twitter - he's lost at least $30bn on that as things stand now.

 

[CNT36]

Netanyahu is a Nazi.

Try harder.

 

[Rob Ray]

But you can't disregard his intentions (or at least what we interpret them as) because that determines whether there should be any consequences or not.

I'm not disregarding his intentions, in fact I've been very explicit in saying what I think they were. But if you are of the view he is a fascist the outcome of him meaning it or not meaning it at that moment is identical. What it means in terms of the ability of a billionaire fascist to do a Nazi salute at the US inauguration is identical.

 

[Petcha]

I won't disrupt this thread but I've posted my concerns about people posting up swathes of AI content in political discussions here:

Should AI copy and paste responses be banned from political discussions here?

There's been a growing number of people copying and pasting swathes of AI content in response to posts here. Although that might be a fun in some threads (I've done it a couple of times in the past), I personally think it's unacceptable when it comes to serious political discussion...

www.urban75.net

I get it. But I think it can be useful at times if it's properly acknowledged. It's no different to a C&P from a mainstream legacy news outlet like the Guardian.

 

[editor]

I get it. But I think it can be useful at times if it's properly acknowledged. It's no different to a C&P from a mainstream legacy news outlet like the Guardian.

That's absolute bollocks, but - AGAIN - take this discussion to the appropriate thread please.

MOD MODE

Warnings will be issued to people contributing to this disruptive off-topic discussion in this thread

 

[Petcha]

That's absolute bollocks, but - AGAIN - take this discussion to the appropriate thread please.

Done

 

[teuchter]

I mean, they quite obviously can. Even if you only take him meaning it as a hypothetical reality, the reaction we're seeing now, including your own, would be the same. Elon Musk, in that moment, did have the power to do a near-perfect Nazi salute in front of hundreds of millions of people without serious consequence. That's just a straightforward fact, regardless of his actual intentions.

The consequence of him performing something that some people interpret as an intentional Nazi salute has been a whole load of controversy, to the extent that it's arguably overshadowed what the actual president was doing at the same time. It's not really like it's just been shrugged off or ignored by the world.

Had he unambiguously performed a fascist salute (and he could have done, had he wanted to) then I think the reaction & consequence would be very different. Well, I'd hope it would be.

 

[inva]

I'm not disregarding his intentions, in fact I've been very explicit in saying what I think they were. But if you are of the view he is a fascist the outcome of him meaning it or not meaning it at that moment is identical. What it means in terms of the ability of a billionaire fascist to do a Nazi salute at the US inauguration is identical.

I think you've lost me here. However we characterise his personal politics Elon Musk deliberately doing a nazi salute at a Presidential inauguration vs Elon Musk accidentally making a gesture that looked like one are completely different in their wider implications.

 

[Spymaster]

Try harder.

I wish some others would.

This whole discussion is about whether Musk is a Nazi, but nobody seems to know what one actually is.

littlebabyjesus says he is but he isn't, but Farage, Trump, and Thatcher definitely aren't; kabbes says he's a known one; loads think he's a fascist but there seems to be widespread disagreement about what a fascist actually is, and now a fair few don't think it was a Nazi salute at all.

I'm not sure if that's progress or not.

 

[Rob Ray]

Musk does thing intentionally ----- we don't know for sure, everyone argues the toss about it
Musk does thing unintentionally --- we don't know for sure, everyone argues the toss about it

Whether he meant it or not, the outcome is the same. Which means it doesn't matter if he meant it or not in terms of whether he can get away with it. He definitely can. That's the implication. A known fascist did the exact arm movement of a Nazi salute and the reaction was "ooh not sure". Maybe if he comes out later and says "yep, seig heil" the public will react differently, but what we can say very specifically is that it will not impose consequences on a fascist just for doing the salute at that time and place.

 

[Spymaster]

Musk does thing intentionally ----- we don't know for sure, everyone argues the toss about it
Musk does thing unintentionally --- we don't know for sure, everyone argues the toss about it

Whether he meant it or not, the outcome is the same. Which means it doesn't matter if he meant it or not in terms of whether he can get away with it. He definitely can. That's the implication.

And Rob Ray is using a random sentence generator to compose his posts.

 

[littlebabyjesus]

I wish some others would.

This whole discussion is about whether Musk is a Nazi, but nobody seems to know what one actually is.

littlebabyjesus says he is but he isn't, but Farage, Trump, and Thatcher definitely aren't; kabbes says he's a known one; loads think he's a fascist but there seems to be widespread disagreement about what a fascist actually is, and now a fair few don't think it was a Nazi salute at all.

I'm not sure if that's progress or not.

Everyone else has lost interest in this boring game. I'm calling that progress.

 

[inva]

Musk does thing intentionally ----- we don't know for sure, everyone argues the toss about it
Musk does thing unintentionally --- we don't know for sure, everyone argues the toss about it

Whether he meant it or not, the outcome is the same. Which means it doesn't matter if he meant it or not in terms of whether he can get away with it. He definitely can. That's the implication. A known fascist did the exact arm movement of a Nazi salute and the reaction was "ooh not sure". That's the outcome, short of him later coming out and saying "yep, seig heil."

Ah I see what you mean, I think this focuses too narrowly on Musk. I'm talking about the significance of how it is received by other people. So for example if Republican supporters in general interpreted it as a Nazi salute and approved of it or at least weren't bothered that would definitely say something (I'm not sure if any polling has been done about it maybe it's too soon, it would be interesting to know how it has been viewed).

 

[editor]

Its been said many times, but the true litmus test should be: try standing up and doing the same gesture in your workplace or in a crowded bar or cafe and see how 'open to interpretation' it really is.

Or just practice in front of a mirror at home with the same energy and facial expression and see how non-Nazi it feels.

 

[Spymaster]

Everyone else has lost interest in this boring game.

I'm not surprised. You're all over the shop.

 

[Rob Ray]

Ah I see what you mean, I think this focuses too narrowly on Musk. I'm talking about the significance of how it is received by other people. So for example if Republican supporters in general interpreted it as a Nazi salute and approved of it or at least weren't bothered that would definitely say something (I'm not sure if any polling has been done about it maybe it's too soon, it would be interesting to know how it has been viewed).

Tbf this is a thread specifically about Musk, but in terms of how Republicans have recieved it, I've no doubt they'll do so along whatever lines best suit them. Enemies like Steve Bannon may well go after him publicly for it, high-up MAGA types won't break ranks in public but will use it against him behind the scenes, the grassroots will rally round variations of "he's just awkward/autistic" and fascists will be over the moon going "one of us, one of us". Few if any will have a chill down their spine and think "oh fuck".

 

[editor]

Looks like the Deutsches Museum in Munich is in no doubt about the meaning of the gesture as their portrait of Elon Musk has now been removed.

German Museum Removes Elon Musk Portrait Amid Controversy

A German museum has removed a portrait of Elon Musk as the billionaire tech entrepreneur faces criticism for his political actions.

news.artnet.com

 

[inva]

Tbf this is a thread specifically about Musk, but in terms of how Republicans have recieved it, I've no doubt they'll do so along whatever lines best suit them. Enemies like Steve Bannon may well go after him publicly for it, high-up MAGA types won't break ranks in public but will use it against him behind the scenes, the grassroots will rally round variations of "he's just awkward/autistic" and fascists will be over the moon going "one of us, one of us". Few if any will have a chill down their spine and think "oh fuck".

Yes maybe I've steered things in too general a direction for this thread and I should probably leave it here for the sake of everyones sanity anyway! Appreciate the good natured argument though

 

[editor]

Let's see what Musk's own daughter thinks

"I’m just gonna say let’s call a spade a fucking spade,” she wrote on Instagram’s Threads platform on Tuesday (21). “Especially if there were two spades done in succession based on the reaction of the first spade.”

Elon Musk's estranged daughter responds to 'Nazi salute' accusations

Elon Musk’s estranged daughter has responded to accusations that her father made a Nazi-like gesture at Donald Trump’s inauguration.

www.nme.com

 

[Spymaster]

Musk's trans daughter is the last person to be gleaning information from. They hate each other.

He's even said something along the lines of her being dead as far as he's concerned.

 

[Yossarian]

Musk's trans daughter is the last person to be gleaning information from. They hate each other.

He's even said something along the lines of her being dead as far as he's concerned.

He said recently he's supporting far-right causes in Europe to "avenge" his "son" that was "killed by the woke mind virus"

But I don't see why her opinion would be invalid, she's spent a lot more time around him than anybody else who is commenting publicly

 

[brogdale]

traditional right wing conservatives will wince and go 'eh, not so loud' but ultimately they recognize why this stuff is useful to them. Its not an uncommon alliance.

Exactly. When I saw the people in the background of the image below I was reminded of Scharenberg's piece on Rosa Luxemberg Stiftung summary about the Nazi's rise to power.

The centre had completely failed to defend democracy. In other words: the Weimar Republic was not destroyed by “extremists from the right and the left”. Rather, its grave was dug by Nazi fascists and the old elites, and the support that these groups received from large sections of the bourgeoisie—support which was initially crucial for the consolidation of Nazi rule. Today’s “parties of the centre” should keep these facts in mind when confronting the rise of the radical right in Germany and Europe.

 

[smokedout]

Most people manage to go through their whole lives without accidentally making a nazi salute. And unlike the footage of gesticulations and waves from other politicians that are being posted all over by his supporters this was a deliberate and specific gesture which he performed twice. A gesture which I have personally never seen anyone make who wasn't purposefully performing a nazi salute.

Now it's possible that he's such a fucking idiot he accidentally performed this gesture, which many would interpret as a Nazi salute, in a major speech in front of the world's press he has had a long time to prepare for (no-one ad libs these things). It's possible he is so inept and ignorant that he didn't realise the significance of that gesture and the reaction it was likely to provoke. It's possible he just gestured in a very unusual and unfortunate way which no-one who is not a nazi has ever managed to do before in an important political speech.

But when you add to that his recent history of deliberately flirting with far right symbols to promote a reaction, along with his support for far right figures and political parties, then I think any objective reading of the balance of probabilities tends towards nazi. That seems the simplest and most obvious explanation.