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'Conspiraloons' in the ascendancy?

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Sorry, that report ended up being a nightmare and I never got back to this discussion. And now I haven't time to go into the internet angle properly because my lunchtime is over. But I wanted to pass on some links that people might find interesting

Dr Patrick Leman at Royal Holloway and Professor Chris French are very good on this subject and I recommend reading their stuff to find out factual stuff about the rise of conspiracy theories, as well as really interesting research into the psychology of believers and non-believers.


There was a C4 Education documentary a few years back in which they tested out some of their findings.

(Documentary called' Who Really Runs the World' and is here). ( Full disclosure: I was a contributor to the doc but had nothing to do with their experiment)

Dr Leman wrote a famous New Scientist article, a copy of which can be found here.

Key bits: apols for long C&P but it is a really good article
Unfortunately there has been little research carried out into what kind of events trigger conspiracy theories, who tends to believe them, and why. We do know, however, that people who believe in one theory are more likely to believe in others: there is a good chance that someone who believes the moon landings were faked will also believe that JFK was killed by a second gunman from the infamous grassy knoll.

There are some variations in who believes what, though, as shown by an as yet unpublished study I carried out recently in the UK with psychologist Chris French at Goldsmiths College, London. We found that beliefs in JFK conspiracies are highest among people aged 36 and over, while those between 20 and 35 are most likely to see a conspiracy behind the 9/11 attacks. Surprisingly, perhaps, the youngest age group - 19 and under - are least likely to endorse any theory.

One possible explanation of these findings is the phenomenon known as "flashbulb memory" - the recall of a sudden event, often shocking and international in scale, that affects individuals on a personal level. This type of memory is more easily formed when individuals are between 20 and 35 years old, so for different generations there are certain events - the assassination of JFK, space shuttle Challenger exploding on take-off, the death of Princess Diana - that tend to trigger flashbulb memories. Some of these iconic, shared events can provide fertile ground in which conspiracy theories are sown.

Age is not the only demographic to influence conspiracy beliefs. Several US studies have found that ethnic minorities - particularly African and Hispanic Americans - are far more believing of conspiracy theories than white Americans. In our recent UK study, we found a similar race effect, coupled with an even stronger association between income and belief levels. People who describe themselves as "hard up" are more likely to believe in conspiracies than those with average income levels, while the least likely to believe are the well off.

How can we account for the link between race, income level and conspiracy theories? Theorists tend to show higher levels of anomie - a general disaffection or disempowerment from society. Perhaps this is the underlying factor that predisposes people more distant from centres of power - whether they be poorer people or those from ethnic minorities - to believe in conspiracies.

So what kind of thought processes contribute to belief in conspiracy theories? A study I carried out in 2002 explored a way of thinking sometimes called "major event - major cause" reasoning. Essentially, people often assume that an event with substantial, significant or wide-ranging consequences is likely to have been caused by something substantial, significant or wide-ranging.

I gave volunteers variations of a newspaper story describing an assassination attempt on a fictitious president. Those who were given the version where the president died were significantly more likely to attribute the event to a conspiracy than those who read the one where the president survived, even though all other aspects of the story were equivalent.

To appreciate why this form of reasoning is seductive, consider the alternative: major events having minor or mundane causes - for example, the assassination of a president by a single, possibly mentally unstable, gunman, or the death of a princess because of a drunk driver. This presents us with a rather chaotic and unpredictable relationship between cause and effect. Instability makes most of us uncomfortable; we prefer to imagine we live in a predictable, safe world, so in a strange way, some conspiracy theories offer us accounts of events that allow us to retain a sense of safety and predictability.

Other research has examined how the way we search for and evaluate evidence affects our belief systems. Numerous studies have shown that in general, people give greater attention to information that fits with their existing beliefs, a tendency called "confirmation bias". Reasoning about conspiracy theories follows this pattern, as shown by research I carried out with Marco Cinnirella at the Royal Holloway University of London, which we presented at the British Psychological Society conference in 2005.

The study, which again involved giving volunteers fictional accounts of an assassination attempt, showed that conspiracy believers found new information to be more plausible if it was consistent with their beliefs. Moreover, believers considered that ambiguous or neutral information fitted better with the conspiracy explanation, while non-believers felt it fitted better with the non-conspiracy account.

The same piece of evidence can be used by different people to support very different accounts of events.
This fits with the observation that conspiracy theories often mutate over time in light of new or contradicting evidence. So, for instance, if some new information appears to undermine a conspiracy theory, either the plot is changed to make it consistent with the new information, or the theorists question the legitimacy of the new information. Theorists often argue that those who present such information are themselves embroiled in the conspiracy. In fact, because of my research, I have been accused of being secretly in the pay of various western intelligence services (I promise, I haven't seen a penny).

It is important to remember that anti-theorists show a similar bias: they will seek out and evaluate evidence in a way that fits with the official or anti-conspiracy account. So conspiracy theorists are not necessarily more closed-minded than anti-theorists. Rather, the theorist and anti-theorist tend to pursue their own lines of thought and are often subject to cognitive biases that prevent their impartial examination of alternative evidence.

How then can we predict who will become believers and non-believers? My hunch is that a large part of the explanation lies in how individuals form aspects of their social identities such as ethnicity, socioeconomic status and political beliefs. The reasoning and psychological biases that create believers or their opposites are fostered by social origins.

For conspiracy believer and non-believer alike, there is a kind of truth out there. It's just a rather different truth that each seeks.
 
Chris French is a dude. He was my ex's psychology tutor, and he was excellent at debunking stuff...very funny man too...
 
Great stuff BK. I find the stuff about age and disempowerment to be very interesting. Ive certainly noticed that some of the paranoid conspiracy types are looking for explanations as to why their lives and dreams have not come to fruition, and are looking for a simple force they can blame.

The comments about anti-conspiracy people having similar bias also rings true to me, for whilst there are a good many sensible posts here that refute the detail of conspiracies, there can be a tendency to protest too much, which probably only reinforces the beliefs of the conspiranoids.

Personally I tend to deal with all of these issues by coming to terms with the fact that I just dont know the exact reality behind many situations, there is usually plenty of murk and even if I cut away the more ridiculous ideas there are still plenty of question marks.
 
Actually, the Diana narrative is pretty hole free.

And listen, please:

She died because she wasn't wearing a seatbelt. The only person who was wearing a seatbelt was her bodyguard and he lived.

As 8Den pointed out, it's a pretty shit assasination attempt that can be beaten with a seatbelt.

some bodyguard if he didn't check she was wearing one - it wouldn't be the same bloke who had thousands paid into his bank account by spooks would it?
 
i've always thought there's something dodgy about diana's death as well. these type of threads make me despair because even though the official story for all of these things has massive holes in it, why believe something else that's even more blatantly a steaming pile of horseshit?

my sentiments entirely, but it's far easier to just gang up on someone and abuse them.
 
some bodyguard if he didn't check she was wearing one - it wouldn't be the same bloke who had thousands paid into his bank account by spooks would it?

The person with thousands in their bank account was Henri Paul, the driver who died, there was no evidence that the money had come from anywhere other than tips from wealthy clients, wages and rent from his tenants.
 
some bodyguard if he didn't check she was wearing one -

Oh piss off, they leapt into a dark car and which was speeding off, he's was her bodyguard not her fucking mummy.

Turning to the plan to fool the paparazzi, he said a decoy car was to leave from the front of the hotel while Dodi and the Princess slipped out of the rear and drove to an apartment off the Champs Elysees.

"I was not happy as Dodi was separating the two security officers, but I went along with the arrangement. It was also Dodi who decided that Paul would be driving the car," he said.

Under cross examination by Michael Mansfield QC, for Mr Al Fayed, he conceded it must have been Mr Paul who gave him details of the plan but insisted that it was still Dodi's idea.

So to be clear, this bodyguard who you suppose was in on it, was against the idea of going in that car. And Dodi picked Paul Henry as the driver.

it wouldn't be the same bloke who had thousands paid into his bank account by spooks would it?

Really where's your proof, because your precious Michael Mansfield

Mr Rees was shown a letter written by Mr Fayed to Lord Stevens, who conducted an inquiry into the crash, in 2004.

In it, he described his former employee as "deceitful" and accused him of pretending to have lost his memory after been "paid off" by the security services to "suppress the truth" about the accident.

Mr Rees said: "I am not part of a conspiracy to suppress the truth at all.

"All I have ever done is given the truth as I see it."

The coroner, Lord Justice Scott Baker, demanded to know why Mr Al Fayed had not withdrawn his clearly unsubstantiated remarks, saying: "Because they are grave allegations I would have thought a man with any decency who was not going to pursue them would have withdrawn them."

Mr Mansfield was forced to admit that he had no evidence to back the allegations.

Just to reiterate for the hard of fucking thinking. In court Dodi's Solicitor admits that there is no evidence that Rees Jones was paid off.

Please shut the fuck up about it.

Source
 
If the royals HAD offed Di you'd expect them to be a bit quicker on the grief front, but they didn't even half mast the flags or anything untill it became clear that The Nation were having a mass Outpouring of Grief
 
Oh piss off, they leapt into a dark car and which was speeding off, he's was her bodyguard not her fucking mummy.



So to be clear, this bodyguard who you suppose was in on it, was against the idea of going in that car. And Dodi picked Paul Henry as the driver.



Really where's your proof, because your precious Michael Mansfield



Just to reiterate for the hard of fucking thinking. In court Dodi's Solicitor admits that there is no evidence that Rees Jones was paid off.

Please shut the fuck up about it.

Source

oh great the establishment whore is back!! Get yourself a job as a solicitor for crooked old bill you twat
 
oh great the establishment whore is back!! Get yourself a job as a solicitor for crooked old bill you twat

Sticks and stones you immense fucking tard. For starts I'm Irish, so I'm not likely to be some curtseying queen lover.

You've repeatedly claimed Jones was paid off, yet over a decade later Al Fayd has been forced to admit this claim is fucking baseless, it shows you as an idiotic gullible fool.
 
If the royals HAD offed Di you'd expect them to be a bit quicker on the grief front, but they didn't even half mast the flags or anything untill it became clear that The Nation were having a mass Outpouring of Grief

Look no one likes you bringing logic into this, much easier to just accuse people of being "establishment whores" if they disagree with you.
 
Sticks and stones you immense fucking tard. For starts I'm Irish, so I'm not likely to be some curtseying queen lover.

You've repeatedly claimed Jones was paid off, yet over a decade later Al Fayd has been forced to admit this claim is fucking baseless, it shows you as an idiotic gullible fool.

wasn't it in the French papers? Don't you think there's an awful lot of coincidences, like the cameras at the tunnel pointing the wrong way and the route taken being the long way round etc etc?
 
my sentiments entirely, but it's far easier to just gang up on someone and abuse them.

That’s a bit rich coming from the man that starts it by referring to everyone that disagrees with him as ‘establishment sheep’ or ‘establishment whores’, without expecting a reaction. :facepalm:
 
That’s a bit rich coming from the man that starts it by referring to everyone that disagrees with him as ‘establishment sheep’ or ‘establishment whores’, without expecting a reaction. :facepalm:


only the ones that KNOW there was nothing sinister. Yet weren't there.
 
wasn't it in the French papers?

Thats nice, you'd think Al Fayd would have found proof before the 2nd inquiry then wouldn't you.

Don't you think there's an awful lot of coincidences, like the cameras at the tunnel pointing the wrong way

Yeah if you're going to try and covertly assassinate someone best make sure the cameras can't see if. Kinda difficult if they're being followed by a gaggle of french paparazzi on motorbikes?

and the route taken being the long way round etc etc?

They were trying to shake off the paparazzi you fucking idiot.
 
Thats nice, you'd think Al Fayd would have found proof before the 2nd inquiry then wouldn't you.



Yeah if you're going to try and covertly assassinate someone best make sure the cameras can't see if. Kinda difficult if they're being followed by a gaggle of french paparazzi on motorbikes?



They were trying to shake off the paparazzi you fucking idiot.

by giving them more chance to catch up? Anyway we're getting nowhere here. I will be back when i've read what Mansfield has to say.
 
like the cameras at the tunnel pointing the wrong way and the route taken being the long way round etc etc?

Most of the CCTV cameras on the route were security cameras pointing at buildings, and the traffic-monitoring camera above the underpass wasn't normally monitored at that time of night. :facepalm:

His report showed that the team identified ten locations of CCTV cameras. None of these had any images relevant to the inquiry, since they were principally security cameras facing the entrances to buildings. Most of the cameras were not maintained by the City of Paris - the owners of the buildings to which they were attached operated them privately.

There was a traffic-monitoring camera above the underpass in the Place de l’Alma itself but this was under the control of la Compagnie de Circulation Urbaine de Paris (Paris Urban Traffic Unit). That department closed down at about 11 p.m., had no night duty staff and made no recordings. Officers in the Police Headquarters Information and Command Centre could continue to view the pictures shown by the traffic camera in real time but could not control it. There would be no reason for those in the overnight control room in Paris to be viewing that camera in particular, before the crash.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Death_of_Diana,_Princess_of_Wales_conspiracy_theories

the route taken being the long way round etc etc?

They were trying to throw off the paparazzi. :rolleyes:
 
Dr Leman wrote a famous New Scientist article, a copy of which can be found here.

Fascinating article, but the only bit that relates to the rise (or fall) of belief in conspiracy theories is in the quote below. This shows that Jazzz in his post about the JFK assination is in agreement with 90% of the US population (as of 1990). But this rise predates the Internet era and I sense that (after a few years of peaking in the early 2000s, in very recent years belief in conspiracy theories has fallen.

"Belief in conspiracy theories certainly seems to be on the rise, and what little research has been done
investigating this question confirms this is so for perhaps the most famous example of all - the claim
that a conspiracy lay behind the assassination of JFK in 1963. A survey in 1968 found that about twothirds
of Americans believed the conspiracy theory, while by 1990 that proportion had risen to ninetenths."
 
by giving them more chance to catch up? Anyway we're getting nowhere here. I will be back when i've read what Mansfield has to say.

A chance to catch up? What feckless idiocy are you dribbling on about.

If the driver was in on the plot and planned the route as part of the conspiracy, you think he'd have put on his own seatbelt.
 
Leman article said:
It is important to remember that anti-theorists show a similar bias: they will seek out and evaluate evidence in a way that fits with the official or anti-conspiracy account. So conspiracy theorists are not necessarily more closed-minded than anti-theorists. Rather, the theorist and anti-theorist tend to pursue their own lines of thought and are often subject to cognitive biases that prevent their impartial examination of alternative evidence.

Great stuff BK. I find the stuff about age and disempowerment to be very interesting. Ive certainly noticed that some of the paranoid conspiracy types are looking for explanations as to why their lives and dreams have not come to fruition, and are looking for a simple force they can blame.

The comments about anti-conspiracy people having similar bias also rings true to me, for whilst there are a good many sensible posts here that refute the detail of conspiracies, there can be a tendency to protest too much, which probably only reinforces the beliefs of the conspiranoids.

Personally I tend to deal with all of these issues by coming to terms with the fact that I just dont know the exact reality behind many situations, there is usually plenty of murk and even if I cut away the more ridiculous ideas there are still plenty of question marks.

elbows, I don't properly have time for this, but I find that particular bit of Leman, and your (bolded) agreement with it, is a bit of a false-equivalence reaction, as if anti conspiracist are equally flawed in their way of thinking to conspiracists.

No time for more, will continue tomorrow ....
 
elbows, I don't properly have time for this, but I find that particular bit of Leman, and your (bolded) agreement with it, is a bit of a false-equivalence reaction, as if anti conspiracist are equally flawed in their way of thinking to conspiracists.

Well anti-conspiracists are the same species, they are bound to make similar mistakes sometimes.

I do not think that they are equivalent in every way, but I certainly agree with the bit that says 'Rather, the theorist and anti-theorist tend to pursue their own lines of thought and are often subject to cognitive biases that prevent their impartial examination of alternative evidence.'

None of us are completely free from bias, I find the only way to avoid making mistakes on this front is to try hard not to form really firm conclusions.

What I tend to find with most conspiracy theories is that the evidence is not very good or is a complete joke. But as there are often plausible motives and by the nature of conspiracies you would not expect to find concrete evidence for them, I cannot completely rule out a lot of them. In my mind I do completely reject theories that are fantastical, are based on grotesque oversimplifications about how the world works (eg the New World Order), and a lot of the people who shout loudest about conspiracy theories have shown themselves to be quite deluded, blinkered and annoying, but Im often still left with some murky clouds surrounding the events that the theories are built around. Then I just play a numbers game, if I pick 10 smelly sounding deaths then maybe a couple of them are dodgy assassinations, but Im unlikely to ever find out which ones, unless some decent evidence emerges which almost never happens.
 
It is most probable that one conspiracy theory is correct in several hundred. Without going into specific odds/figures, it's gonna happen one day.
 
I did a bit of research into conspiracies last year and came across this book:

Age of Anxiety: Conspiracy Theory and the Human Sciences

It's from just before 9/11 so doesn't mention any of the stuff that's played out in the CT world in the last 8 years or so.

From that collection, Human Sciences as Conspiracy Theory by Martin Parker is well worth reading (the final article).

It's very readable and slightly tongue in cheek but it certainly made the largest impression on me out of all the analysis that I read.
 
just started the chapter about Diana and contrary to popular belief (media)regarding the inquiry, the option "It was an accident" was NOT the one chose by the jury.
2 witnesses passing as the crash took place described a motorbike following and a car 'blocking' the Diana car - these 2 vehicles were never traced.

over to 8den, QC for the establishment
 
just started the chapter about Diana and contrary to popular belief (media)regarding the inquiry, the option "It was an accident" was NOT the one chose by the jury.
2 witnesses passing as the crash took place described a motorbike following and a car 'blocking' the Diana car - these 2 vehicles were never traced.

over to 8den, QC for the establishment

Page and book title please fucko.

Cause;

Princess Diana and Dodi Al Fayed were unlawfully killed due to the "gross negligence" of driver Henri Paul and the paparazzi, an inquest has found.

The inquest jury also specified that Mr Paul's drink-driving and a lack of seatbelts contributed to their deaths.

Princes William and Harry said they "agreed" with the verdicts and thanked the jury for the "thorough way" in which they considered the evidence.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk/7328754.stm
 
I know David Aaronovitch has massive and rightly much objected-to political baggage, but his recent book on conspiracy theories looks interesting and worth a read? Even if it some of its motives and conclusions are flawed. Sorry, my PC's playing up and I can't do the link right now :mad: , but its called 'Voodoo Histories'

ETA : Here's the Independent's review of it. Plenty of others around.
 
Well anti-conspiracists are the same species, they are bound to make similar mistakes sometimes.

I do not think that they are equivalent in every way, but I certainly agree with the bit that says 'Rather, the theorist and anti-theorist tend to pursue their own lines of thought and are often subject to cognitive biases that prevent their impartial examination of alternative evidence.'

None of us are completely free from bias, I find the only way to avoid making mistakes on this front is to try hard not to form really firm conclusions.

What I tend to find with most conspiracy theories is that the evidence is not very good or is a complete joke. But as there are often plausible motives and by the nature of conspiracies you would not expect to find concrete evidence for them, I cannot completely rule out a lot of them. In my mind I do completely reject theories that are fantastical, are based on grotesque oversimplifications about how the world works (eg the New World Order), and a lot of the people who shout loudest about conspiracy theories have shown themselves to be quite deluded, blinkered and annoying, but Im often still left with some murky clouds surrounding the events that the theories are built around. Then I just play a numbers game, if I pick 10 smelly sounding deaths then maybe a couple of them are dodgy assassinations, but Im unlikely to ever find out which ones, unless some decent evidence emerges which almost never happens.

That's all fair enough, particularly about nobody being free of bias, anti conspiracists very much included.

I think I'd go further than you though in being sceptical about the vast majority of conspiracies simply because of the so obviously cavalier and under rigorous approach to evidence and research of so many CTers and CT websites.

I do very much agree though that there'll be plenty of unknown dodginess in official circles -- history proves it. To me though, the job of exposing this credibly and effectively should NOT be done by anyone with links to out and out conspiracist websites/organisations. Rather the job is best done by properly dilligent (and independent) investigative journalists and researchers and historians.

Who specifically disassociate themselves from CTism.

Call the above bias if you like, but it's bias based on my old background as a historian and what I used to know about reliable/credible sources, evidence, research.
 
I know David Aaronovitch has massive and rightly much objected-to political baggage, but his recent book on conspiracy theories looks interesting and worth a read? Even if it some of its motives and conclusions are flawed. Sorry, my PC's playing up and I can't do the link right now :mad: , but its called 'Voodoo Histories'

If Aaronovitch makes you vomit in your mouth try CounterKnowledge by Damien Thompson. or How Mumbo Jumbo Conquered the World by Francis Whelan.

Counterknowledge directly confronts, loose change, MMR bullshit etc. How mumbo jumbo (etc) goes into the same area but with greater sweep. They both challenge post modernism and other bullshit.
 
I think the official story of 9/11 is full of holes but there's no way I'm going to believe something else that's even more full of holes.
 
I think the official story of 9/11 is full of holes but there's no way I'm going to believe something else that's even more full of holes.

I'd be really surprised if there was any massive terrorist attack and there wasn't inconsistencies in the narrative and and contradictory accounts of events.
 
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