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'Conspiraloons' in the ascendancy?

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Didn't do a great job then did they? Rubbish, incompetent conspiracy ... :p


all part of the Bilderberg agenda.
Huge media hype for the war, Blair pulling out all the stops to intimidate MPs, old bill denying thousands their democratic right to march. This war was GOING TO HAPPEN AT ALL COSTS, whatever the public did. But at least the 2 million (or whatever) that DID make it, showed huge opposition to their lies
 
I think the jingoism that lead up to the Falklands war was far worse, to be honest. I wouldn't call that a conspiracy though, just the whipping up of nationalist fervour.

very similar , yes, but Thatcher's main objective was to get idiots to forget the massacre she caused to jobs in this country and offer them a nice bit o patriotism instead, then calling an election
 
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I meant the Bill weren't very effective at stopping people getting to the demo, as you seem to be implying was part of the conspiracy. That part of it at least didn't work too well ...

Not that the demo achieved anything very much more broadly, but that's another debate.
 
The point was Kelly's death cannot possibly be 'accidental', as you and WoW seem to reserve an 'open mind' for. Some people think it may have been suicide.

I was just having a giggle at that.

Wheres your evidence it wasn't suicide?
 
the whole thing was so OTT and gung-ho that you hardly dared speak out against the war at the time because the medias lies and brainwashing were so severe that woulda made you an unpatriotic commie faggot or something. It's totally different now the public have seen it all to be lies though, and most people are anti war now.

Bollocks, absolute bollocks. There were plenty of us speaking out, millions of us marched, there were plenty of articles in the press questioning the government line - not that you would know as you have admitted you never read newspapers, you just form ideas in your own head from thin air.

he was just being sarcastic about people having a go at me for putting forward plausible theories

Oh you poor little bunny, posters 'having a go at you'. He’s all hurt at posters ‘having a go at him’ - bless.

After all it's not like you would ever 'have a go' at other posters would you? No sire.

How ironic.
 
Whilst most of the press certainly swallowed the government line and lies, there were plenty of articles questioning that position, so not much evidence of a conspiracy there.

But, then you don’t seriously believe there was anyway.

Oh don't get all William on me here. What do you call it when senior politicians hold clandestine meetings with newspaper editors and plan how to to foist a set of lies on the public?

I call it a conspiracy myself.
 
Oh don't get all William on me here. What do you call it when senior politicians hold clandestine meetings with newspaper editors and plan how to to foist a set of lies on the public?

I call it a conspiracy myself.

Would that be the same newspaper editors that allowed articles from contributors that questioned the government line to be published?

Or are you just talking about the tabloid comics here?
 
Would that be the same newspaper editors that allowed articles from contributors that questioned the government line to be published?

Or are you just talking about the tabloid comics here?

You won't seriously deny that the media were wholeheartedly supportive of the war?

Of course they allowed a few dissenting voices, to give the appearance of a fair debate. That's how they do. Read yer Chomsky.
 
I think I'd rather be 'all William' than 'all dwyer' :p

At least I'm honest about my intentions, and in posting what I really think ... :hmm:

You're not honest about having me on ignore though, you nit.

Seriously, what's the point of claiming to put someone on ignore, then responding to every single one of their posts when quoted by others?

What's the point?

Especially when your responses consist entirely of: "he doesn't really believe that you know."

Pull yourself together man.
 
You won't seriously deny that the media were wholeheartedly supportive of the war?

Of course they allowed a few dissenting voices, to give the appearance of a fair debate. That's how they do. Read yer Chomsky.

Would you like a list of the editorials and articles opposing the war? Hang on wasn't David Kelly "killed" over a BBC piece that exposed the government's claims about 45 minutes being a complete lie?
 
You won't seriously deny that the media were wholeheartedly supportive of the war?

Of course they allowed a few dissenting voices, to give the appearance of a fair debate. That's how they do. Read yer Chomsky.

FFS, I think everyone can accept that much of the media was suckered in by the government’s lies, just like the rest of the Commons was, but to suggest newspaper editors were somehow part of a conspiracy and actually knew the truth is barking mad.
 
Oh don't get all William on me here. What do you call it when senior politicians hold clandestine meetings with newspaper editors and plan how to to foist a set of lies on the public?

I call it a conspiracy myself.


i think i'll just leave YOu to argue with em, ya say it far better than i could. But it still won't get through to em.

Like i mean, WHICH dissenting voices were allowed at the start of the Iraq war? I can't remember any!! NOWADAYS yes it is, but apart from a few bits in The Mirror, the tabloids were all full steam into the Bilderberg agenda
 
FFS, I think everyone can accept that much of the media was suckered in by the government’s lies, just like the rest of the Commons was, but to suggest newspaper editors were somehow part of a conspiracy and actually knew the truth is barking mad.

Everyone knew the truth. I knew it, the 2 million who marched against the war knew it, which means you knew it, and the newspaper editors most certainly knew it too.

So why did they print their lies? You find it "barking mad" to assert that they did so as a result of "briefing" by government ministers?

Well guess what? That's what is commonly known as conspirators conspiring in a conspiracy.
 
FFS, I think everyone can accept that much of the media was suckered in by the government’s lies, just like the rest of the Commons was, but to suggest newspaper editors were somehow part of a conspiracy and actually knew the truth is barking mad.

Read Jon Ronson "Them" , but if you can't be bothered, he tracked a meeting down to remote woodland in Spain where he watched as ex heads of state, that cunt Mandelson and newspaper OWNERS went past.
 
Read Jon Ronson "Them" , but if you can't be bothered, he tracked a meeting down to remote woodland in Spain where he watched as ex heads of state, that cunt Mandelson and newspaper OWNERS went past.

Did you read that piece where Denis Healey was asked what went on at Bilderberg meetings? His reply was succinct and informative: "fuck off."
 
Read Jon Ronson "Them" , but if you can't be bothered, he tracked a meeting down to remote woodland in Spain where he watched as ex heads of state, that cunt Mandelson and newspaper OWNERS went past.

Did you miss the bit where he interviewed a Bilderberger and discussed the group at length?
 
Everyone knew the truth. I knew it, the 2 million who marched against the war knew it, which means you knew it, and the newspaper editors most certainly knew it too.

So why did they print their lies? You find it "barking mad" to assert that they did so as a result of "briefing" by government ministers?

Well guess what? That's what is commonly known as conspirators conspiring in a conspiracy.

What a ridiculous claim to make, most people didn't know the full truth – how the fuck could they?

Most people I knew and spoke too that were anti-war still believed certain claims, such as the possession of weapons of mass destruction – the main claim to justify the war.

There's a big different between government briefing the media with lies and a conspiracy between the government and media - perhaps you need to check on the definition of the word 'conspiracy' and get back to us when you have learnt its meaning.

Read Jon Ronson "Them" , but if you can't be bothered, he tracked a meeting down to remote woodland in Spain where he watched as ex heads of state, that cunt Mandelson and newspaper OWNERS went past.

And. So. What?
 
Most people I knew and spoke too that were anti-war still believed certain claims, such as the possession of weapons of mass destruction – the main claim to justify the war.

In that case, most people you know are idiots and suckers of the first water. Everyone I know was perfectly well aware that they were being lied to. Thing was, there was nothing we could do about it. Why not? Because of a very effective conspiracy.

There's a big different between government briefing the media with lies and a conspiracy between the government and media - perhaps you need to check on the definition of the word 'conspiracy' and get back to us when you have learnt its meaning.

Well according to the Princeton dictionary, a "conspiracy" is:

"# a secret agreement between two or more people to perform an unlawful act
# a plot to carry out some harmful or illegal act (especially a political plot)
# a group of conspirators banded together to achieve some harmful or illegal purpose."

So it appears that I was right, does it not? The UK was led into war by a conspiracy. Are you still planning to deny this? Thought not.

It would thus further seem that, far from being barking mad, conspiracy theorists are actually the only ones to see the truth of the matter.

http://www.google.com.tr/search?hl=...&oi=glossary_definition&ct=title&ved=0CAYQkAE
 
In that case, most people you know are idiots and suckers of the first water. Everyone I know was perfectly well aware that they were being lied to. Thing was, there was nothing we could do about it. Why not? Because of a very effective conspiracy.

Now, you are either telling porkies or trolling.

It was perfectly reasonable to assume Iraq had WMDs on the basis that they had been supplied with them in the past and had indeed used them. The '45-minute threat' was clearly nonsense, but the fact that WMDs could have existed was very possible.

Well according to the Princeton dictionary, a "conspiracy" is:

"# a secret agreement between two or more people to perform an unlawful act
# a plot to carry out some harmful or illegal act (especially a political plot)
# a group of conspirators banded together to achieve some harmful or illegal purpose."

So it appears that I was right, does it not? The UK was led into war by a conspiracy. Are you still planning to deny this? Thought not.

It would thus further seem that, far from being barking mad, conspiracy theorists are actually the only ones to see the truth of the matter.

http://www.google.com.tr/search?hl=...&oi=glossary_definition&ct=title&ved=0CAYQkAE

Well done, they say 'you learn something new every day', so your work is done for today.

Tomorrow's lesson will be the different between the government briefing the newspapers with lies and the newspapers being in on a conspiracy, which as you have just learnt would need them to know that were being lied too and coming to an agreement to ignore the truth and print falsehoods.

It's actually a very simple lesson, I am sure if you sleep on it by the morning you'll get it and then you'll be able to enjoy the rest of tomorrow without needing to learn anything more. :)
 
It was perfectly reasonable to assume Iraq had WMDs on the basis that they had been supplied with them in the past and had indeed used them. The '45-minute threat' was clearly nonsense, but the fact that WMDs could have existed was very possible.

Actually most of the people I know who were against the war didnt believe the WMD stuff at all, not just the exagurated 45 minutes version. I sort of know what you mean about the possibility still existing but the amount of previous weapons inspections & destruction of ingredients and facilities and how crippled Saddams regime was made it seem a bit unlikely. I must admit though I expected they would be able to find something, no matter how lame, after the invasion to at least make the WMD stuff seem partially true, but that never happened.
 
It was perfectly reasonable to assume Iraq had WMDs on the basis that they had been supplied with them in the past and had indeed used them. The '45-minute threat' was clearly nonsense, but the fact that WMDs could have existed was very possible.

No it wasn't. Did you believe it? I didn't believe it for a second. You know why? Because I recognize a conspiracy when I see one.

Tomorrow's lesson will be the different between the government briefing the newspapers with lies and the newspapers being in on a conspiracy, which as you have just learnt would need them to know that were being lied too and coming to an agreement to ignore the truth and print falsehoods.

And the latter is exactly what happened.
 
Tomorrow's lesson will be the different between the government briefing the newspapers with lies and the newspapers being in on a conspiracy, which as you have just learnt would need them to know that were being lied too and coming to an agreement to ignore the truth and print falsehoods.

Im not sure I see it as that black & white. I would imagine that some journalists were quite aware that some stuff they were being briefed with was not true. Im not sure if I would call these things conspiracies because they tend to be systemic in nature, and people within various different parts of the system may be quite happy to spread lies and propaganda if they genuinely believe it serves the national interest in some very important way.

The buildup to the Iraq war was a bit atypical because this stuff was questioned far more by institutions such as the BBC than I would normally expect. They even called some of our own stuff propaganda. I assume this is because there was a big split amongst the various elites and managerial classes as to whether this war was a good thing, and because the threat to our national interest from Iraq did not seem that great, they were more willing to question it.

I guess one of the lessons of this is that even when you have a system where people within the system are used to lies and are fairly cynical, you still ahve to put a bit of effort in so that they have something they can cling to to enable them to doublethink just enough to go along with things without causing a stink. Crises of confidence are easily dealt with by systems if they affect isolated minority of people, but when it goes to far there is a mess and a possibility of change, one that is usually neutered by people desperately trying to make token gestures and 'draw a line under it'.
 
Actually most of the people I know who were against the war didnt believe the WMD stuff at all, not just the exagurated 45 minutes version. I sort of know what you mean about the possibility still existing but the amount of previous weapons inspections & destruction of ingredients and facilities and how crippled Saddams regime was made it seem a bit unlikely. I must admit though I expected they would be able to find something, no matter how lame, after the invasion to at least make the WMD stuff seem partially true, but that never happened.

I am surprised that most of the people you knew believed the WMDs claim was totally wrong, in view of the facts that no one denies (a) Saddam had had them and (b) Saddam had used them.

The inspections & destruction policy was all well and good, but (a) Saddam had been giving the weapons inspectors the run around and (b) Iraq is a bloody big country and 'needle and haystack' situation comes into play.

I, like you, was surprised they didn't find something to prove the WMD stuff was true, to follow the 'conspiracy' rather than 'complete cock-up' theory you would have expected the Americans would have smuggled some evidence in to support the lie, but strangely they didn't. :hmm:
 
Oops I forgot one of my main points was that as so much of this is systemic and an understandable compromise between the various opinons and wants of those that have power, Im not sure I would describe it as a conspiracy, it seems much broader than that. With something like Iraq there would have been a variety of small conspiracies which were part of trying to achieve specific aims, and maybe it was closer to a conspiracy than a lot of wars because it didnt serve the needs of a broad enough spectrum of powerful interests. But the word conspiracy is becoming another soiled label due to its modern useage, and I go down my usual path of thought where I ridicule many conspiracy theorists for expressing surprise or anger at the idea that powerful people have power. If you dont pretend that rhetoric and political ideals and democracy are supposed to be taken at face value, then its hard to see everything as a shadowy conspiracy.
 
I am surprised that most of the people you knew believed the WMDs claim was totally wrong, in view of the facts that no one denies (a) Saddam had had them and (b) Saddam had used them.

The inspections & destruction policy was all well and good, but (a) Saddam had been giving the weapons inspectors the run around and (b) Iraq is a bloody big country and 'needle and haystack' situation comes into play.

Arguments along these lines I remember quite well, but it was usually those in favour or not very against the looming war that made points about Saddam having them in the past, giving inspectors the run-around, burying them in the desert.

Without wishing to have a complete rerun of this argument, the counterpoints went along the lines of 'the weapons had a use-by date, it was very hard for him to import new ones from anyone, we had mangled his capacity in many ways over many years, how much he hindered the inspections was hyped for propaganda purposes and he let them back in anyway, plus the government evidence for WMD was so weak it suggested the reality was even weaker'.

Perhaps faking evidence of WMD to save face was considered far too risky because if it went wrong and was exposed, well the last thing they needed was more damage to their credibility.

I was quite fascinated by the Rumsfeld & friends explanation later on that Saddam had wanted us to think he had weapons. Ho ho. I assume that sort of brinkmanship is a standard feature of global politics and people in charge of analysing threats would take such possibilities into account, certainly Saddam would not have wanted neighbours like Iran to know how weak he really was, but I think the reality was fairly easy to predict.

Anyways in general I think its clear that there are a large number of different reasons why the different power players do the things they do, and why they lie about stuff. Sometimes their motives and methods are just as dodgy and corrupt as conspiracy theorists would have us believe, but the reality is so much more complex and nuanced, including governments actually trying to act in the way they think best serves their nation and people. Its not really that hard to imagine what it would be like to be a decider of some kind, what limits there are, and that there is not one shadowy force at work, but a collection of persuasive factors. Sometimes a belief may cause a dodgy decision, sometimes some other powerful people or group exerting pressure, sometimes personal interest, sometimes forces from the past. Sometimes knowing the reality, having quality info and seeing what the real threats are, coupled with a lack of faith in masses or other groups reacting in the right way, and having to play the international poker game and so not be transparent to other players, leads to dodgy things. Fear, greed, and the will to get ones way surely lead to all manner of suspect decisions, perhaps some of them resemble plots, but good luck ever being truly sure whats occurring.
 
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