Census 2021

[belboid]

According to Wiki there are only a few changes to the 2011 questions, but those added look capable of generating some 'debate':

View attachment 254395

I dont think we have talked about the first of these questions, I must admit.

It is an interesting one, my immediate reaction was 'really? That's a priority?' - and I still largely think that. But considering the growth of groups like Help for Heroes (no matter how much they make you want to puke) and increased focus upon what happens to people when they leave, it will be fascinating to find out. To see whether all the bullshit they sell you about that role has any resemblance to reality. The implications for policy (which we can actually influence) are clear and significant.

 

[belboid]

Here's another interesting tale - from the 2001 census.

Due to slight boundary changes for the city and differences in lower level output areas (!) the area covered by Manchester council found the census had removed 14,000 homes, housing 25,000 people, from their boundaries. They complained and, after a years argument, had them returned. It wasn't just a silly argument over whether they were bigger than Salford or not, it was about the level of government grant they received - it amounted to £7.5million.

£300 a head may not sound a lot and, in this instance, it was money simply moved from one council to another. But it is what determines levels of council grants from government (amongst other things). £300 per person that the council will lose if you don't exist at all, each year for ten years (given government cuts, it probably still is about £300 twenty years later). It may not be earth-shattering, but it's not insignificant.

BBC NEWS | England | Manchester | Census 'lost' 25,000 people

news.bbc.co.uk

 

[belboid]

I see the transphobes have formally given the ONS until 6pm Wednesday to remove the guidance on the sex question or they’ll demand a judicial review.

 

[brogdale]

Meanwhile some remainer/rejoiner folks are encouraging like-minded types to declare their 'national identity' as European.

 

[19force8]

I see the transphobes have formally given the ONS until 6pm Wednesday to remove the guidance on the sex question or they’ll demand a judicial review.

That'll be another outbreak of legal grifting then.

Over the last year or two they have turned into some sort of litigation cult. Can't remember where I saw the account of their online fundraising, but it showed over £1.2million raised to fund various legal actions last year.

 

[ska invita]

I see the transphobes have formally given the ONS until 6pm Wednesday to remove the guidance on the sex question or they’ll demand a judicial review.

What is the guidance?

 

[19force8]

What is the guidance?

That respondents can answer using their identified gender. So, much the same as the guidance in the 2011 census.

 

[belboid]

What is the guidance?

This question is vital for understanding population growth and equality monitoring. Please select either "Female" or "Male".

If you are considering how to answer, use the sex recorded on one of your legal documents such as a birth certificate, Gender Recognition Certificate, or passport.

If you are aged 16 or over, there is a later voluntary question on gender identity. This asks if the gender you identify with is different from your sex registered at birth. If it is different, you can then record your gender identity.

They don't use the 'if you are considering how to answer...' bit elsewhere, which allows it to be more widely interpreted, but it is that accepting any legal document that is the big 'problem'.

Apparently there is a campaign to answer the question but attach a strongly worded letter of complaint as well. For it to be electronically read by a machine made by a notable makers of phallic weaponry and quietly discarded.

 

[belboid]

Meanwhile some remainer/rejoiner folks are encouraging like-minded types to declare their 'national identity' as European.

Yes. And, you know what? I cant see any issue with that. They will all be enumerated, as Jedi's were, and it will be vaguely interesting to see how many people do it.

In Sheffield last time 81 people stated their religion as Heavy Metal, making it more popular locally than Jainism and Baha'i

 

[brogdale]

This feels like a massive cop-out...but I have to admit that I like the music used in the (grabs garlic) Saatchi TV advert for the 2021 census.

It's a cover of the Zombies' 1968 This Will Be Our Year performed by a Norwich band The Vagaband:

 

[Dom Traynor]

Refusal to participate in the census is an act of social vandalism, the victims are charities, campaigners, the poor and the vulnerable.

 

[brogdale]

Refusal to participate in the census is an act of social vandalism, the victims are charities, campaigners, the poor and the vulnerable.

94% complied in 2011 and since then the poor & vulnerabe have got poorer relying on ever more charity.

 

[miss direct]

I had a census lady come round a few years ago (confusing because there was no census then - maybe it was practice). She had a tablet and sat at the kitchen table. Surely they won't be allowed in homes during covid? I remember questions about sexuality and she held the tablet up for those and didn't ask them aloud - said it was in case people felt like they couldn't be open due to family members/others around. I just remember thinking that my household at the time would really not give any useful data at all. One Greek lady who had just moved in, a French couple who were just in the UK for 6 weeks and me, who was just there for 2 months and couldn't answer half of the questions because they just didn't make sense for someone with a life like mine (at that point).

 

[Acanthus]

Brogdale:

I've read nearly all this thread, and agree with your stance and reasoning completely. I'm glad you brought up this Leidos connection, for I've looked high and low for peoples' views on this, and the subject of your OP seems to be unique. It's as if the entire anarch-pacifist community have yet to discover the Leidos-ONS collaboration, unlike the controversy of 2011.

I never took part in the previous census on grounds of conscience, due the appallingly insensitive and unethical agreement to employ L-M. For the same reason, I disagree with the Leidos involvement. In 2011 the Quaker mayor of ?Stroud refused to comply with the census on the same grounds, and was taken to court - and won his case. (Human Rights legislation resulted in the Equality Act, of which one 'protected characteristic' is religion and/or philosophical belief). It's no longer illegal to be a conscientious objector in times of war, and in many ways much harder than blindly following orders. Thankfully the dark days of enforced labour camps, white feathers, hate language, shootings at dawn, etc. for COs have long gone.

I also object to the rather puerile bullying and insults being thrown at you over your strong principles. We aren't being 'black sheep' for the mere sake of it. If we break our principles at the first hurdle, there's little point in having any principles - and I'd end up wracked with feelings of guilt. Far from 'drivel' you talk much sense, and I admire your tenacity.

 

[Kevbad the Bad]

Refusal to participate in the census is an act of social vandalism, the victims are charities, campaigners, the poor and the vulnerable.

It all depends on how the census is used. It might be used for constructive social planning. Or it might be used for destructive, discriminatory purposes. Or something in between. Or nothing much. Or negative political purposes. Or whatever. So any refusal or compliance can only be truly judged long after the event. Which makes it nigh on impossible to make moral judgements derived from potential consequences.

 

[Acanthus]

I agree completely, Kevbad - especially when governments lack openness and habitually lie, and that's happening more and more, it would seem. How can we safely trust them? We can't.

 

[belboid]

Brogdale:

I've read nearly all this thread, and agree with your stance and reasoning completely. I'm glad you brought up this Leidos connection, for I've looked high and low for peoples' views on this, and the subject of your OP seems to be unique. It's as if the entire anarch-pacifist community have yet to discover the Leidos-ONS collaboration, unlike the controversy of 2011.

I never took part in the previous census on grounds of conscience, due the appallingly insensitive and unethical agreement to employ L-M. For the same reason, I disagree with the Leidos involvement. In 2011 the Quaker mayor of ?Stroud refused to comply with the census on the same grounds, and was taken to court - and won his case. (Human Rights legislation resulted in the Equality Act, of which one 'protected characteristic' is religion and/or philosophical belief). It's no longer illegal to be a conscientious objector in times of war, and in many ways much harder than blindly following orders. Thankfully the dark days of enforced labour camps, white feathers, hate language, shootings at dawn, etc. for COs have long gone.

I also object to the rather puerile bullying and insults being thrown at you over your strong principles. We aren't being 'black sheep' for the mere sake of it. If we break our principles at the first hurdle, there's little point in having any principles - and I'd end up wracked with feelings of guilt. Far from 'drivel' you talk much sense, and I admire your tenacity.

No, you’re up your own arse wankers who are stealing £3000 from your community. There is no campaign this time same as their wasn’t in 2001 because no one really gives a fuck but you were manipulated by cleverer people out to abolish the census. And at least the mayor of Stroud campaigned publicly against the l&m involvement, unlike lazy brogdale who is just not filling it in.

 

[kabbes]

I have always found it weird that what is commonly called "history" is mainly just "what leaders and governments do", wars etc.... And what 99.9999% of what ordinary people do day to day just isn't recorded in any way, as though it is not of any interest.

Funny enough, Foucault had some things to say about that in the very thing I have been reading this morning. Foucault’s very point was that it was actually the transformation of what is recorded from being about leaders to being about ordinary people that was intrinsic to the way modern societies control people. He said (in Discipline and Punish, 1975):

For a long time ordinary individuality — the everyday individuality of everybody — remained below the threshold of description. To be looked at, observed, described in detail, followed form day to day by an uninterrupted writing, was a privilege. The chronicle of a man, the account of his life, his histiography, written as he lived out his life, formed part of the rituals of his power. The disciplinary methods [i.e. the ways in which discipline is imposed on the population — my note] reversed this relation, lowered the threshold of describable individuality and made of this description a means of control and a method of domination. It is no longer a monument for future memory but a document for possible use.

 

[Orang Utan]

I have been strong armed into working on this. Not looking forward to asking people about their sexual orientation

 

[Acanthus]

Belboid: Your response is not only ad hominem, but also crude and makes no logical sense. Sorry, but it's impossible to reason with such replies. Don't be surprised if I ignore similar of what some may call 'drivel'.

 

[Acanthus]

I have been strong armed into working on this. Not looking forward to asking people about their sexual orientation

That's not a compulsory question, though.

 

[belboid]

I had a census lady come round a few years ago (confusing because there was no census then - maybe it was practice). She had a tablet and sat at the kitchen table. Surely they won't be allowed in homes during covid? I remember questions about sexuality and she held the tablet up for those and didn't ask them aloud - said it was in case people felt like they couldn't be open due to family members/others around. I just remember thinking that my household at the time would really not give any useful data at all. One Greek lady who had just moved in, a French couple who were just in the UK for 6 weeks and me, who was just there for 2 months and couldn't answer half of the questions because they just didn't make sense for someone with a life like mine (at that point).

That’s the point of doing it, to find out things like that, things that aren’t recorded anywhere else, about people who may not be here long, because it’s snapshot of who is in Britain, including people only in very short term stays.

 

[belboid]

Belboid: Your response is not only ad hominem, but also crude and makes no logical sense. Sorry, but it's impossible to reason with such replies. Don't be surprised if I ignore similar of what some may call 'drivel'.

Your post was sanctimonious drivel with no content.

 

[belboid]

I have been strong armed into working on this. Not looking forward to asking people about their sexual orientation

You wont

 

[Orang Utan]

That's not a compulsory question, though.

It’s not compulsory to answer, but I think it’s compulsory to ask it

 

[belboid]

Belboid: Your response is not only ad hominem, but also crude and makes no logical sense. Sorry, but it's impossible to reason with such replies. Don't be surprised if I ignore similar of what some may call 'drivel'.

Why do you want to steal £3000 from your community?

 

[Orang Utan]

You wont

We’ll see, training on Monday

 

[rutabowa]

We’ll see, training on Monday

Me too (different city I think)

 

[planetgeli]

We’ll see, training on Monday

Me too (different city I think)

Good luck to you both. A cautionary tale.

In 2011, with time on my hands, I got the job I presume you both will be doing. My training consisted of a couple of hours of being told things weren't quite up to speed yet. During this training I found myself the only person there questioning (critically, but I thought helpfully) the logistics.

I then went to pick up my boxes of stuff from the team leader. When I got to his house I was met with an absolute garage full of boxes and a stressed leader trying to sort it all out. Thank God I didn't go for the leader job I thought to myself. I could never have stored all that. The leader mentioned to me, in the most suspicious tones, that he'd noticed I was the only one being critical (of the mess) at the meeting.

Got home and unpacked. I have a small house. My boxes took up half my living room. Then I set to work. What I found was all my addresses were completely out of order. I live in the countryside. Most homes here don't have house numbers but names. I was given a map of the area. I remember spending about 16 hours trying to sort out the mess of the addresses. It got worse. We'd been given a laptop each. The laptops were not properly working. The site needed to connect to wasn't working. But the worst thing of all was the laptop and website were absolute essential to the job and the laptop/website continually crashed my whole internet every time I tried to use it.

After 16 hours of sorting, and barely getting halfway through the address pile, and the laptop issues showing no sign of being solved, I gave up. The biggest reason I gave up was because I was not prepared to have no personal internet for the next 6 weeks.

Maybe they fixed the issues. I don't know. Because I walked out. When I returned all my stuff to the leader he was pissed off I was trying to claim 16 hours of work. It took me weeks to get what I was owed. I actually wish I'd tipped the boxes out back in his garage so he (or ore likely some other poor fool) would have had to do all the work I'd done over again.

I hope you don't face these problems. They've had 10 years to fix them right?

Good luck (seriously) to both. I think the Census is a good thing. But in 2011, in Wales, it was one of the most piss poorly organized projects I've ever had the misfortune to work with.

 

[rutabowa]

I'm hoping that because I'm doing it in a geographically small area in a city the addresses cant go too wrong! I am glad I don't have a "leader" role though.