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Census 2021

That's just shit posting.
that is all you are doing.

Falsehood after falsehood, wilful ignorance and dishonesty. You are, like so many conspiraloons, actually helping those you claim to oppose.

Until you can bring yourself to at least admit some of the errors you have made then you really have nothing worthwhile to say. But do carry on about those evil 'adecco goons' if you like, that bit was at least hilariously stupid.
 
:(
I'll not engage with a process involving and enriching a US military-industrial corporation. Sad times when that's deemed weird on Urban.

If you’ve been through a UK airport recently or used the NHS you will have engaged with a process involving Leidos’ logistics and border protection products respectively, to name but two examples. I wonder why you have singled out the census as the one thing to boycot?
 
If you’ve been through a UK airport recently or used the NHS you will have engaged with a process involving Leidos’ logistics and border protection products respectively, to name but two examples. I wonder why you have singled out the census as the one thing to boycot?
At heart, that appears to offer quite a defeatist council of despair; why bother to resist one aspect of the neoliberal consolidator state's corporate outsourcing when there are so many other examples?

But I suppose the key difference here is that, under threat of sanction, the state is attempting to compel this engagement with a foreign military-industrial corporation. It is entirely up to me whether or not I choose to use the services of a UK airport and, as it happens, I haven't done so for many years. As for the NHS, I can't really believe that the need to access healthcare that might rely on outsourced services can be seen as an argument for acquiescing to all other such neoliberal outsourcing, let alone one under compulsion.
 
At heart, that appears to offer quite a defeatist council of despair; why bother to resist one aspect of the neoliberal consolidator state's corporate outsourcing when there are so many other examples?

But I suppose the key difference here is that, under threat of sanction, the state is attempting to compel this engagement with a foreign military-industrial corporation. It is entirely up to me whether or not I choose to use the services of a UK airport and, as it happens, I haven't done so for many years. As for the NHS, I can't really believe that the need to access healthcare that might rely on outsourced services can be seen as an argument for acquiescing to all other such neoliberal outsourcing, let alone one under compulsion.
How did you make the decision that the only thing you are going to do is the one that requires you to sit on your arse and do nothing?

Was it the fact that it is completely pointless, as you the company have already been paid and you are not partaking in any campaign so its a purely individual bit of moralism?

Was it the fact that by doing so you will also be helping to further reduce resources in working-class areas (as anyone who knows what 'per capita' means already understands)?

Or was it the fact that it just requires you to sit on your arse and simply come up with a bullshit rationalisation to justify yourself?
 
One of the great things about the census is that once the information has been compiled, the basic data sets for your local area are then available to all absolutely free. Every day such sets are using by charities, community groups and campaigning organisations to inform their work and to provide indisputable evidence of need. Of course other data sources are available and are also used, but the census is absolutely key because it is the one that is universal and because it is the bedrock which many other data sources use as their starting point. All others miss some sections of society, usually the poorest and most marginalised, and renders them invisible, not even a part of any problem. Still other sources are comprehensive and well-researched, but you have to pay to access them, leaving them in the hands of the wealthier, the more well-funded and those who can afford to pay professional fundraisers. Census data is available to anyone and requires no specialist knowledge to access or use so that even a tiny group who has only just set itself up make use of it.
 
How did you make the decision that the only thing you are going to do is the one that requires you to sit on your arse and do nothing?

Was it the fact that it is completely pointless, as you the company have already been paid and you are not partaking in any campaign so its a purely individual bit of moralism?

Was it the fact that by doing so you will also be helping to further reduce resources in working-class areas (as anyone who knows what 'per capita' means already understands)?

Or was it the fact that it just requires you to sit on your arse and simply come up with a bullshit rationalisation to justify yourself?
From the OP in this thread I’ve been clear about how/why I have decided not to complete or return a census form. And, yes that decision does obviously involve not doing what the state demands; that kind of follows. I’ve also said, more than once, that I don’t think rejecting the compulsion to engage with a US military corporation is pointless. That is an individual moral decision just as your decision to comply is.

Casting me as responsible for further reducing resources in working class areas does look improbable; neoliberal governments of the last 45 years appear to have been able to do that with or without my census data.
 
From the OP in this thread I’ve been clear about how/why I have decided not to complete or return a census form. And, yes that decision does obviously involve not doing what the state demands; that kind of follows. I’ve also said, more than once, that I don’t think rejecting the compulsion to engage with a US military corporation is pointless. That is an individual moral decision just as your decision to comply is.

Casting me as responsible for further reducing resources in working class areas does look improbable; neoliberal governments of the last 45 years appear to have been able to do that with or without my census data.
Pare 1 - your moral position is worth what you put into it. Which in your case is nothing.

Para 2- dennis nielsen tried that argument too. being less of a cunt than a massive cunt isn't really something to claim the moral high ground about.
 
Pare 1 - your moral position is worth what you put into it. Which in your case is nothing.

Para 2- dennis nielsen tried that argument too. being less of a cunt than a massive cunt isn't really something to claim the moral high ground about.
dennis nielsen; wow :eek:

Think I’ll take a little break from this thread for bit.
 
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belboid : A whole lot of your posts have made plenty of good sense about the census, for example #155.
But that last one (concernng Dennis Nielsen) seems to make no sense whatsover .... :confused:

brogdale : Please don't leave the thread, I've disagreed with more of what you've posted than agreed, but everything you posted has made me think , and this thread has included some great discussion about aspects of the census that I wasn't aware of.
 
belboid : A whole lot of your posts have made plenty of good sense about the census, for example #155.
But that last one (concernng Dennis Nielsen) seems to make no sense whatsover .... :confused:

brogdale : Please don't leave the thread, I've disagreed with more of what you've posted than agreed, but everything you posted has made me think , and this thread has included some great discussion about aspects of the census that I wasn't aware of.
Were you aware that the PCS had called for a Scottish style year postponement of the E&W census on Covid safety grounds?
Also some pretty robust concerns expressed about the outsourcing.

A PCS spokesman said: “It is deeply irresponsible to recruit 30,000 people for door-to-door questioning of the public, when there are new, highly infectious variants of the virus emerging.”

“We have raised serious concerns over safety around the upcoming ONS census and taking into account Scotland has postponed its census, England and Wales must follow suit.”

It added: “Ministers must also remove Adecco from any rescheduled census work next year as private contractors have no place delivering public services which can be done in-house.”
 
Found a buff OHMS envelope on the door mat this morning and assumed it was about the census but, lo no, it was from the ONS about a separate data collecting exercise regarding employment/unemployment rates.

On the face of it a little odd given that the state, via HMRC & DWP must already have access to such numbers? I assume that the ONS are attempting some sort of sample verification of the data that they already? Also a little odd is the timing coming so close before the census and the fact that AFAIK the census already asks about employment status?

Anyone else had the letter?

1613663862642.png

Must be keen to get this data if they're offering a £15 "gift voucher"?

1613663709520.png

1613663726944.png
 
Must be keen to get this data if they're offering a £15 "gift voucher"?

IIRC the vouchers are a fairly standard inclusion in ONS surveys, I had one last year. Didn't take them up on the off of the voucher but wished they had a "donate it to charity of your choice" option instead.
 
Voucher from Love2Shop apparently.

e2a: says can be used in, amongst other places, Debenhams, Burtons, Dorothy Perkins, Evans...
 
belboid : A whole lot of your posts have made plenty of good sense about the census, for example #155.
But that last one (concernng Dennis Nielsen) seems to make no sense whatsover .... :confused:
In one interview Nielsen was confronted with the fact that he has a mass murderer. His reply was that 'aye, I killed a few people, but look at Thatcher, she's killed tens of thousands, she's the real mass murderer.'

Now considering that Thatcher didn't wipe out the entire human race a few times over, the proportions are rather in brogdales benefit, if we're doing a side by side comparison, but the principle - that someone else is much worse so who cares what I do - is the same.
 
In one interview Nielsen was confronted with the fact that he has a mass murderer. His reply was that 'aye, I killed a few people, but look at Thatcher, she's killed tens of thousands, she's the real mass murderer.'

Now considering that Thatcher didn't wipe out the entire human race a few times over, the proportions are rather in brogdales benefit, if we're doing a side by side comparison, but the principle - that someone else is much worse so who cares what I do - is the same.
Give over, pal.:(
 
The two alternatives to a census are no planning at all, or a population register. Various countries have the latter, particularly in Scandiwegia, where there is a public list of who owns what, earns what, lives with whom etc etc. Perhaps that is a better system, absolute openness is something that we should strive for. However it is mindbogglingly unlikely that we would ever agree to bring such a system in as I imagine quite a lot of people would object to such data being publically available. Quite a lot of those people will currently be in government.

Comparatively the census is cheap, reliable and respects individuals privacy. Long my it continue.
 
As you wish, but I can't believe this is really how you want to be posting on here. :(
and I still cannot believe you want to keep posting drivel, ignoring the vast majority of points raised in criticism and sneering at low paid temp workers.
 
and I still cannot believe you want to keep posting drivel, ignoring the vast majority of points raised in criticism and sneering at low paid temp workers.
I'm just not getting what you think you're going to achieve with such a personalised attack style of posting. I've started a thread about the census and been upfront from the OP that I've decided not to engage with the process. I appreciate that you disagree with that position; fair enough...but do you really think that the name-calling stuff might change minds?

Honestly, I think your posting on this thread has come across as quite strange. For taking a view that you object to I've been called, amongst other things, a pointless, moralistic petty bourgeois individual/dilettante, a fucking dick, a laughable mess of contradictions, deluded, a 'normally intelligent' conspiraloon who is less of a cunt than a massive cunt (like Dennis Nielsen).

And been accused of talking bollocks, crap, writing tosh, complete and utter drivel (repeatedly) playing into the hands of & supporting the Tories, making false libertarian arguments like Spiked online. Being a personally indulgent lazy cop-out offering a mess of contradictions and false reasoning that I don’t understand equating to a pointless, failed nothing position and sounding like a conspiraloon. Engaged in a personal indulgence about which I’m foolish, repeatedly wrong; wrong on virtually everything, offering no evidence with a desire to get everything completely and utterly wrong whilst scrabbling around pulling any old shit off the internet like a conspiraloon. Offering nothing worthwhile but falsehood after falsehood in a wilfully ignorant and dishonest manner that helps those that I claim to oppose whilst sitting on my arse, doing nothing but bullshit rationalisation that helps to reduce resources in working class areas whilst claiming the moral high ground.

Impressive in it's own way, but not really the way to persuade others of the integrity of your position?

Or maybe I'm just taking an old-fashioned view of how discussions take place. Who knows?

I genuinely thought that posters might like the opportunity to talk about the census. :(
 
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I'm just not getting what you think you're going to achieve with such a personalised attack style of posting. I've started a thread about the census and been upfront from the OP that I've decided not to engage with the process. I appreciate that you disagree with that position; fair enough...but do you really think that the name-calling stuff might change minds?

Honestly, I think your posting on this thread has come across as quite strange. For taking a view that you object to I've been called, amongst other things, a pointless, moralistic petty bourgeois individual/dilettante, a fucking dick, a laughable mess of contradictions, deluded, a 'normally intelligent' conspiraloon who is less of a cunt than a massive cunt (like Dennis Nielsen).

And been accused of talking bollocks, crap, writing tosh, complete and utter drivel (repeatedly) playing into the hands of & supporting the Tories, making false libertarian arguments like Spiked online. Being a personally indulgent lazy cop-out offering a mess of contradictions and false reasoning that I don’t understand equating to a pointless, failed nothing position and sounding like a conspiraloon. Engaged in a personal indulgence about which I’m foolish, repeatedly wrong; wrong on virtually everything, offering no evidence with a desire to get everything completely and utterly wrong whilst scrabbling around pulling any old shit off the internet like a conspiraloon. Offering nothing worthwhile but falsehood after falsehood in a wilfully ignorant and dishonest manner that helps those that I claim to oppose whilst sitting on my arse, doing nothing but bullshit rationalisation that helps to reduce resources in working class areas whilst claiming the moral high ground.

Impressive in it's own way, but not really the way to persuade others of the integrity of your position?

Or maybe I'm just taking an old-fashioned view of how discussions take place. Who knows?

I genuinely thought that posters might like the opportunity to talk about the census. :(
There's a longstanding tradition on this board of taking the piss out of people talking bollocks and being highly selective in what parts of arguments they respond to. I am simply continuing in that tradition.
 
The 2011 census was the first which asked about languages spoken within households. This allowed for councils and local community groups to develop plans and courses in local languages which could be targeted accurately at the populations that needed them, thus helping with community cohesion and integration.
 
There's a longstanding tradition on this board of taking the piss out of people talking bollocks and being highly selective in what parts of arguments they respond to. I am simply continuing in that tradition.

I'm sure that's how you'd like to justify your posting on the thread but, simply repeating that someone taking a different view to your own is talking bollocks, does not make it so.

So far on the thread I've made quite a few factual posts about the UK's 2021 Census (& other census events) and I've not seen you dispute any of these posts. Is that because they aren't in fact bollocks?

If any of the following posts were factually wrong I'd be interested to discuss that (without the 'traditional' abuse if possible).

#1. Date of Census & Outsourcing contracts

#4 Question changes for 2021

#8 The Scottish decision for postponement to 2022

#14 The intended online nature of the census

#24 & #64 The neoliberal state’s desire to drop census as it is presently undertaken inc. #67 2008 Treasury select committee report about ditching census in present form

#42 & #49 conviction rate for non-compliance

#57 #64 Role of Adecco in recruitment, training & remuneration of enumerators

#96, #98 & 104 Leidos ownership and work with US security services

#102 US abuse census data confidentiality

#129 Leidos/Lockheed Martin corporate connections

#131, #137 #140 & #146 UK Census confidentiality exceptions

#161 PCS demands for postponement

#162 & 166 The ONS Employment survey
 
I'm sure that's how you'd like to justify your posting on the thread but, simply repeating that someone taking a different view to your own is talking bollocks, does not make it so.

So far on the thread I've made quite a few factual posts about the UK's 2021 Census (& other census events) and I've not seen you dispute any of these posts. Is that because they aren't in fact bollocks?

If any of the following posts were factually wrong I'd be interested to discuss that (without the 'traditional' abuse if possible).

#1. Date of Census & Outsourcing contracts

#4 Question changes for 2021

#8 The Scottish decision for postponement to 2022

#14 The intended online nature of the census

#24 & #64 The neoliberal state’s desire to drop census as it is presently undertaken inc. #67 2008 Treasury select committee report about ditching census in present form

#42 & #49 conviction rate for non-compliance

#57 #64 Role of Adecco in recruitment, training & remuneration of enumerators

#96, #98 & 104 Leidos ownership and work with US security services

#102 US abuse census data confidentiality

#129 Leidos/Lockheed Martin corporate connections

#131, #137 #140 & #146 UK Census confidentiality exceptions

#161 PCS demands for postponement

#162 & 166 The ONS Employment survey
I've disputed many of those along the way (eg, you got the name of the arms company, what they do wrong, who they employ wrong and how much they are paid wrong), and have said some of your replies have been contradictory whilst in other cases you have replied to criticisms of your argument by saying 'yes it is', if that much. There have also been various comments which are true but of no relevance to whether one should complete the form or not.

In that vein, I agree almost entirely with everything in that article about the PCS argument and with their position entirely. Of course it should have been postponed, its bloody daft doing it now - part of Tory sabotage plans I fear. And of course it should have been in house, but, again, that is no reason not to complete it. PCS do NOT suggest doing so, they are very supportive of it (hardly surprising as they have members in the ONS).
 
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