Census 2021

[belboid]

And yet again you ignore all the things you have got wrong and withdraw to the single narrow claim that LM are involved.

Anyone can say what they like on this thread. But when they talk bollocks they should be corrected, like on every other thread.

I’m afraid you are utterly deluded if you think individuals not complying with the census will make them rethink their outsourcing strategy. It failed last time when there was a campaign around it and the government knew that was why they weren’t complying. Failing to comply but not telling them why will simply push them to abandon the entire process. Which will weaken w-c communities even more than they plan to already.

 

[belboid]

random census facts.

there has never been a case of data abuse connected to the collation of uk census data.

 

[brogdale]

And yet again you ignore all the things you have got wrong and withdraw to the single narrow claim that LM are involved.

Anyone can say what they like on this thread. But when they talk bollocks they should be corrected, like on every other thread.

I’m afraid you are utterly deluded if you think individuals not complying with the census will make them rethink their outsourcing strategy. It failed last time when there was a campaign around it and the government knew that was why they weren’t complying. Failing to comply but not telling them why will simply push them to abandon the entire process. Which will weaken w-c communities even more than they plan to already.

I'm sorry to disappoint, but the 'single narrow claim' that Lockheed Martin are involved in the UK state's 2021 census, (a pretty strong 'claim', I think?), is the reason why I'm not engaging with the process. I suppose I could make up some other reasons if you really think that would help?

I'm afraid that I can't agree with the notion that the existence of censal data will make any difference to the class-war attacks of the neoliberal, consolidator state against working class communities.

Perhaps time to let this back and forth drop for while; maybe give some space for other posters to make their points, if they wish?

 

[belboid]

I'm sorry to disappoint, but the 'single narrow claim' that Lockheed Martin are involved in the UK state's 2021 census, (a pretty strong 'claim', I think?), is the reason why I'm not engaging with the process. I suppose I could make up some other reasons if you really think that would help?

You did make up other claims. I have pointed out how you have been wrong repeatedly. Your replies have simply amounted to 'oh no I'm not.' You have offered no evidence to support your assertions, which is probably why you are now backing away from them. And to claim it is any kind of statement against LM is just laughable and completely and utterly pointless. Petty-bourgeois dilettantism. And adding the words ' neoliberal, consolidator state' doesn't change that to a radical position.

 

[platinumsage]

Regarding my decision not to engage with the 2021 census; I'm not really sure what 'arguments' you're expecting? I've got all the evidence I need to convince me that it is true that Lockheed Martin are contractually involved and I can't see that you, or anyone else for that matter, disputes that.

How are they involved given they span off their IT division which was taken over by Leidos?

According to this Leidos are only involved in administering the paper forms.

 

[brogdale]

How are they involved given they span off their IT division which was taken over by Leidos?

According to this Leidos are only involved in administering the paper forms.

According to their Wiki entry, Leidos is the legal successor of the original SAIC, [Science Applications International Corporation an American Defense, Aviation, Information Technology and Biomedical Research company (Lockheed Martin IS&GS)], and retains SAIC's pre-2013 stock price and corporate filing history.

 

[platinumsage]

According to their Wiki entry, Leidos is the legal successor of the original SAIC, [Science Applications International Corporation an American Defense, Aviation, Information Technology and Biomedical Research company (Lockheed Martin IS&GS)], and retains SAIC's pre-2013 stock price and corporate filing history.

Yes, as I said Lockheed Martin span off their IT division. Leidos aquired it. Lockheed Martin now have no involvement whatsoever.

 

[brogdale]

Yes, as I said Lockheed Martin span off their IT division. Leidos aquired it. Lockheed Martin now have no involvement whatsoever.

I really don't know about the actual ownership of Leidos, but I do know that it retains parts of LM's operations and is a US owned military-industrial corporation. So whatever the capitalist badging of the operation, it won't change my objection.

e2a: I did think that Leidos was presently owned by LM which is why I've referred to them throughout the discussion, so far. From now on I'll refer to them as Leidos.

 

[belboid]

If anyone is serious about not involving LM and aren't just being lazy, here's a piece from Peace News from last time about how you can return your form but not allow them to profit. I would highlight the section that says:

If you don’t send in your form, Lockheed Martin will still get its money and just make a higher profit for less work.

How to Fill In Your Census Form without Lockheed Martin Profiting (long version) | Peace News

peacenews.info

tl/dr - demand a paper form and cross out any bar codes. The coding time (which wont actually be carried out by anyone working for LM, or whatever company it is now) will take them an age so will downgrade their profits and push them away from the business while still gathering the data that everyone who understands what 'per capita' means agrees is incredibly useful.

edit: actually, the best way to not let Leidos get your data is to do it on the internet. Funny old world.

 

[yield]

I have always found it weird that what is commonly called "history" is mainly just "what leaders and governments do", wars etc.... And what 99.9999% of what ordinary people do day to day just isn't recorded in any way, as though it is not of any interest.

Thomas Carlyle's Great man theory.

The making of the English working class by E. P. Thompson is good social history.

random census facts.

there has never been a case of data abuse connected to the collation of census data.

Give over.

The internement of the Japanese-Americans or there's <Godwin's Law>

There are lots of beneficial things about modernity. Public goods the universal health care system, welfare state, education, vaccination programmes etc.

Noentheless if you don't have blind faith in the state. It's a mixed bag.

 

[belboid]

The internement of the Japanese-Americans or there's <Godwin's Law>

There are lots of beneficial things about modernity. Public goods the universal health care system, welfare state, education, vaccination programmes etc.

Noentheless if you don't have blind faith in the state. It's a mixed bag.

ahem, yes, I meant UK census data, as now amended

There have very clearly been many breaches by authoritarian states and I can understand the nervousness of those who could be targeted - Jewish community leaders say this is the reason for the under-estimation of the number of jewish people in the country.

 

[brogdale]

Thomas Carlyle's Great man theory.

The making of the English working class by E. P. Thompson is good social history.


Give over.

The internement of the Japanese-Americans or there's <Godwin's Law>

There are lots of beneficial things about modernity. Public goods the universal health care system, welfare state, education, vaccination programmes etc.

Noentheless if you don't have blind faith in the state. It's a mixed bag.

There was also this more recent use/abuse of US censal data:



and, of course, thanks to Blair our own spooks have access to censal data in matters relating to 'national security'.

 

[platinumsage]

I really don't know about the actual ownership of Leidos, but I do know that it retains parts of LM's operations and is a US owned military-industrial corporation. So whatever the capitalist badging of the operation, it won't change my objection.

e2a: I did think that Leidos was presently owned by LM which is why I've referred to them throughout the discussion, so far.

They're entirely separate. Lockheed Martin does not own any part of Leidos and has no involvement in the 2021 census.

I'm not suggesting it would change your objection but it's nice to get your facts right surely, if you are highlighting this as a reason to boycott the census.

Leidos are only involved in processing the paper forms so the "sharing data with a company involved in surveillance and data processing for the CIA and FBI" part of the 2011 boycot rationale mentioned in your OP doesn't apply to anyone completing the 2021 census online.

 

[brogdale]

They're entirely separate. Lockheed Martin does not own any part of Leidos and has no involvement in the 2021 census.

I'm not suggesting it would change your objection but it's nice to get your facts right surely, if you are highlighting this as a reason to boycott the census.

Leidos are only involved in processing the paper forms so the "sharing data with a company involved in surveillance and data processing for the CIA and FBI" part of the 2011 boycot rationale mentioned in your OP doesn't apply to anyone completing the 2021 census online.

Wiki says:



& their own website has them working with the FBI as a 'success story':

 

[platinumsage]

Wiki says:

View attachment 254557

& their own website has them working with the FBI as a 'success story':

View attachment 254559

Sure but I was referring to people not wanting to share their data with such a company as a reason for boycotting the 2011 census, and stating that this doesn‘t apply to anyone completing the 2021 census online because Leidos have no involvement with that aspect.

 

[Pickman's model]

They're entirely separate. Lockheed Martin does not own any part of Leidos and has no involvement in the 2021 census.

I'm not suggesting it would change your objection but it's nice to get your facts right surely, if you are highlighting this as a reason to boycott the census.

Leidos are only involved in processing the paper forms so the "sharing data with a company involved in surveillance and data processing for the CIA and FBI" part of the 2011 boycot rationale mentioned in your OP doesn't apply to anyone completing the 2021 census online.

16 million census forms. these are for the people who cannot complete the census online

 

[brogdale]

16 million census forms. these are for the people who cannot complete the census online

Guess: £22bn?

 

[Pickman's model]

Guess: £22bn?

£65.1m

 

[brogdale]

£65.1m

per form that's quite impressive.

 

[Pickman's model]

this made me laugh, brogdale Is British public ready to put its trust in government's handling of its personal data?

 

[platinumsage]

16 million census forms. these are for the people who cannot complete the census online

Yes, but as I said that rationale doesn’t apply to anyone who can complete it online.

 

[belboid]

Census contracts - Office for National Statistics

www.ons.gov.uk

 

[Pickman's model]

Yes, but as I said that rationale doesn’t apply to anyone who can complete it online.

i know what you said and repetition doesn't make it a more valuable contribution. in simple terms, you're saying that people who let their information fall into the clutches of leidos have only themselves to blame because they could have done it online. only the people we're talking about haven't the means to do it online. it's clear you don't give a fuck about them.

 

[belboid]

i know what you said and repetition doesn't make it a more valuable contribution. in simple terms, you're saying that people who let their information fall into the clutches of leidos have only themselves to blame because they could have done it online. only the people we're talking about haven't the means to do it online. it's clear you don't give a fuck about them.

I imagine far fewer than 16mill will actually be issued - it was meant to be 'online first' originally but is now 'online as far as physically possible' The doorknockers will be there to help people do it online (they'll have a device), same as they did with filling out the forms previously.

 

[platinumsage]

i know what you said and repetition doesn't make it a more valuable contribution. in simple terms, you're saying that people who let their information fall into the clutches of leidos have only themselves to blame because they could have done it online. only the people we're talking about haven't the means to do it online. it's clear you don't give a fuck about them.

Your clearly don’t know what I said because I was talking about reasons to withhold information and boycott census. Sure you could boycot the online census due to the fact that people completing the paper version would have their data processed by Leidos, but that’s a different reason than boycotting the census because you are worried about who will process your own data that you input online.

 

[Pickman's model]

I imagine far fewer than 16mill will actually be issued - it was meant to be 'online first' originally but is now 'online as far as physically possible' The doorknockers will be there to help people do it online (they'll have a device), same as they did with filling out the forms previously.

leaving aside this leidos tangent my feelings about the census are founded not on the private concerns involved with it but the information being gathered for the use of the british state. and that's why i won't be jumping up to fill out this thing online or in paper form

 

[Pickman's model]

Your clearly don’t know what I said because I was talking about reasons to withhold information and boycott census. Sure you could boycot the online census due to the fact that people completing the paper version would have their data processed by Leidos, but that’s a different reason than boycotting the census because you are worried about who will process your own data that you input online.

it is refreshing to see you adopt an attitude of mea culpa and i hope it's one you'll take again in future.

 

[belboid]

leaving aside this leidos tangent my feelings about the census are founded not on the private concerns involved with it but the information being gathered for the use of the british state. and that's why i won't be jumping up to fill out this thing online or in paper form

is that particularly different than in other years? Whilst there clearly are questions which could be ill-used, and data sets compiled for community profiling purposes (which can be good or bad, of course), the questions are generally innocuous enough for it to be of much help for anything other than what is openly claimed for it.

 

[platinumsage]

leaving aside this leidos tangent my feelings about the census are founded not on the private concerns involved with it but the information being gathered for the use of the british state. and that's why i won't be jumping up to fill out this thing online or in paper form

The “British state” know far more about you than what the census form provides for.

 

[Pickman's model]

The “British state” know far more about you than what the census form provides for.

then what's the point of the census if they already know everything the census form asks and more besides?