8ball
Maximum Facepalm
Would have been mid-2020 when I first heard it, so yeah, that figures.
Several people shot dead in Plymouth 12 August 2021
- Thread starter tendril
- Start date
Would have been mid-2020 when I first heard it, so yeah, that figures.
BigMoaner
We will all go together
Horrible that this stuff exists. Be interesting to know what "shape" this type of mysoginy would take if say, all of the online spaces for it were suddenly removed. I still suspect that this stuff is created online - i.e. it is given growth and recruits more members, because of the online spaces. Feeling rejected - you suddenly are given explanation, meaning, community, and someone to blame. Maybe that rejection would morph into something else if those communities were not there. Mysoginy exists of course nad runs through everything, but I still would suspect that these online places actually create more of it.
Only last night I was at a singles night - a room in a central london pub. I am not really looking for a relationship at the moment, but I like these nights sometimes, can meet some great people, men and women, and I am always upfront about not wanting to actually pursue anything. I was sat at a table and noticed a woman sat a few yards be approached by a chap and you can see him really make an effort to connect. I was being nosey and watched a bit - it was obvious that the woman was not interested in any way shape or form and her body language started to show it - after five mins or so she turned her back on him a little and he was off. he walked to the other side of the room and sat, starting at his drink for about 20 minutes. he looked genuienly hurt. I was thinking of this thread - isn't it marvelous he can now go online and get all that explained to him as some sort of evil plot by women and alphas? It would be only one way of reacting to being rejected, of course, but god it's grim. Most of the men in my life deal with rejection how I have done "ah well, she didn't like me/wasn't a connection". shrug of shoulders, a little flash of hurt perhaps. move on. but now we have these wonderful new sick options to get our teeth into! Horrible for everyone, especially women, knowing this stuff is lurking around.
I was thinking of this thread - i know there's a lot of criticism abotu the "get a hair cut" angle. But with these things there's the large, socio-economic forces at play, but also there is micro level too - and was thinking how i would approach this if my son complained that he was lonely and felt inept with women and could I help. There's that level where explaining to him the atomisation of society through the forces of liberal darwinism and the destruction of communities in the name of profit, that relationships are seen as just another to get or aquire, would hopefully give him some context. But when you faced with that question on the ground level, human to human, I would also explain to him the old cliche is true - have a relationship with yourself that's loving and meaningful before thinking about anyone else. That although you have been taught it from pretty much birth, you don't need anyone to have a meaningful life. Relationships can take so many forms other than "approach girl in pub, hope she falls in love with me" - love can be felt from all angles in life, from coworkers, friends, family, siblings. Romantic love is just one tiny aspect of the whole range of human relation. And yes, if he was lounging around all day playing video games, not looking after his health, i would also say that might want to be looked at. - he's asked me for help. I know it's what my dad would have said to me, too - "stop sitting around all day and get out there and live son!". The usual enlarging, shrinking the telescope range shit.
I also understand that most of these fellas have tried everything and are still lonely. Lonliness is a horrible, frightening, disorientating place, and I have nothing but sympathy. So grim that this lonliness is now co-opted into some of the vielist mysoginistic shit going.
Only last night I was at a singles night - a room in a central london pub. I am not really looking for a relationship at the moment, but I like these nights sometimes, can meet some great people, men and women, and I am always upfront about not wanting to actually pursue anything. I was sat at a table and noticed a woman sat a few yards be approached by a chap and you can see him really make an effort to connect. I was being nosey and watched a bit - it was obvious that the woman was not interested in any way shape or form and her body language started to show it - after five mins or so she turned her back on him a little and he was off. he walked to the other side of the room and sat, starting at his drink for about 20 minutes. he looked genuienly hurt. I was thinking of this thread - isn't it marvelous he can now go online and get all that explained to him as some sort of evil plot by women and alphas? It would be only one way of reacting to being rejected, of course, but god it's grim. Most of the men in my life deal with rejection how I have done "ah well, she didn't like me/wasn't a connection". shrug of shoulders, a little flash of hurt perhaps. move on. but now we have these wonderful new sick options to get our teeth into! Horrible for everyone, especially women, knowing this stuff is lurking around.
I was thinking of this thread - i know there's a lot of criticism abotu the "get a hair cut" angle. But with these things there's the large, socio-economic forces at play, but also there is micro level too - and was thinking how i would approach this if my son complained that he was lonely and felt inept with women and could I help. There's that level where explaining to him the atomisation of society through the forces of liberal darwinism and the destruction of communities in the name of profit, that relationships are seen as just another to get or aquire, would hopefully give him some context. But when you faced with that question on the ground level, human to human, I would also explain to him the old cliche is true - have a relationship with yourself that's loving and meaningful before thinking about anyone else. That although you have been taught it from pretty much birth, you don't need anyone to have a meaningful life. Relationships can take so many forms other than "approach girl in pub, hope she falls in love with me" - love can be felt from all angles in life, from coworkers, friends, family, siblings. Romantic love is just one tiny aspect of the whole range of human relation. And yes, if he was lounging around all day playing video games, not looking after his health, i would also say that might want to be looked at. - he's asked me for help. I know it's what my dad would have said to me, too - "stop sitting around all day and get out there and live son!". The usual enlarging, shrinking the telescope range shit.
I also understand that most of these fellas have tried everything and are still lonely. Lonliness is a horrible, frightening, disorientating place, and I have nothing but sympathy. So grim that this lonliness is now co-opted into some of the vielist mysoginistic shit going.
BigMoaner
We will all go together
also wouldn't surprise me if lonliness/feeling weird/isolated on some level is actually is the default setting for western socities. maybe this new phone/car will help. that those feelings permeate everything. which is so sick and sad when you think about how things could actually be.
likesfish
You can't park here sir
The firearms licensing system is self funding but it basically pays for one visit a year if one person goes goes nut in the meantime the system won’t catch it.
But if somebody thinks you need to do a anger management course you shouldn’t get your gun back for a year at least.
The problem with incel “ beliefs” is they collect with a bloke at their lowest then it’s a horrible vicious circle.
Could have been me 25 years ago but voluntary work really bad vegan cooking by me
and I met the love of my life strangely not an 18 year old virgin sex mad millionaire supermodel 
. But then I’m not chisel jawed six pack millionaire myself.
Incels think they deserve said mythical girlfriend while obviously not remotely meeting the frankly mythical Chad stereotype standards and getting bent out of shape because they don’t have a phd 6 figure salary form a job in the city etc.
But if somebody thinks you need to do a anger management course you shouldn’t get your gun back for a year at least.
The problem with incel “ beliefs” is they collect with a bloke at their lowest then it’s a horrible vicious circle.
Could have been me 25 years ago but voluntary work really bad vegan cooking by me
and I met the love of my life strangely not an 18 year old virgin sex mad millionaire supermodel . But then I’m not chisel jawed six pack millionaire myself.Incels think they deserve said mythical girlfriend while obviously not remotely meeting the frankly mythical Chad stereotype standards and getting bent out of shape because they don’t have a phd 6 figure salary form a job in the city etc.
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Aladdin
Well-Known Member
I have been reading about this shooter. There are media reports on commemts his friends and neighbours have made. If even half are true then people working with him turned a blind eye from his childhood on.
His school friends say he was playing Call Of Duty and other violent computer games when he was 5 yrs old.
People who knew him said that he was watching porn while in primary school.
He was in a special ed school and known to have huge interest in and knowledge of guns and mass shootings. There is mention of his diagnosis of autism and adhd.
"Mount Tamar ex-teacher Jonathan Williams criticised the apparent lack of monitoring for Davison Mr Williams wrote on Facebook : “He would have had an Educational Health Care Plan which means the State recognises a special need and is legally bound to address it up to the age of 25."
He was moved to an adult secure unit after he assaulted someone and a few years ago he assaulted a couple but was only given a warning by the police at the time and went on an anger management course. If he had been charged he would not have gotten a gun license let alone a gun.
He was reported on reddit by a 16 yr old American girl for sending her pms about sex and even after he knew she was underage he kept doing this and told her he basically didnt care and that her age would not stop him.
His mother was actively looking for help with him and for him.
His videos describe women as objects. And his attitude shows that he detests them. Including his mother who had just recovered from cancer.
The Incel websites and YouTube seem to have offered him an outlet to express his anger. A space where his views were accepted. They boosted his theories and gave him more theories. So when his mum was telling him that he was wrong and trying to get him to think differently, he was never going to listen because he had all this online "proof" and shitloads of people agreeing with him.
An impressionable, violent, isolated, socially inept, gun obsessed, angry, women hating man came out of this and turned a gun on the only woman who probably loved him enough to try to help him all his life.
The victims are barely getting a mention. How fucking awful to be out walking with your little daughter and no doubt happy and enjoying your life only to have that brutally taken away from you.
His hatred of women obviously became a hatred of his world. He had no ambition. No desire to work. No acceptance of his own life. No respect for the essence of who he was. No love for himself. I dont believe he was the product of his immediate environment. Or the society he lived in.
I do believe he was the product of online material that is increasingly part of young impressionable boy's lives. Online games. Violent video games. Online aggression towards women
Online Pornography. Online groups of hate filled men.
Would he have become this person if he had grown up without the internet and access to violence and online hate groups? I seriously doubt he would have.
His school friends say he was playing Call Of Duty and other violent computer games when he was 5 yrs old.
People who knew him said that he was watching porn while in primary school.
He was in a special ed school and known to have huge interest in and knowledge of guns and mass shootings. There is mention of his diagnosis of autism and adhd.
"Mount Tamar ex-teacher Jonathan Williams criticised the apparent lack of monitoring for Davison Mr Williams wrote on Facebook : “He would have had an Educational Health Care Plan which means the State recognises a special need and is legally bound to address it up to the age of 25."
He was moved to an adult secure unit after he assaulted someone and a few years ago he assaulted a couple but was only given a warning by the police at the time and went on an anger management course. If he had been charged he would not have gotten a gun license let alone a gun.
He was reported on reddit by a 16 yr old American girl for sending her pms about sex and even after he knew she was underage he kept doing this and told her he basically didnt care and that her age would not stop him.
His mother was actively looking for help with him and for him.
His videos describe women as objects. And his attitude shows that he detests them. Including his mother who had just recovered from cancer.
The Incel websites and YouTube seem to have offered him an outlet to express his anger. A space where his views were accepted. They boosted his theories and gave him more theories. So when his mum was telling him that he was wrong and trying to get him to think differently, he was never going to listen because he had all this online "proof" and shitloads of people agreeing with him.
An impressionable, violent, isolated, socially inept, gun obsessed, angry, women hating man came out of this and turned a gun on the only woman who probably loved him enough to try to help him all his life.
The victims are barely getting a mention. How fucking awful to be out walking with your little daughter and no doubt happy and enjoying your life only to have that brutally taken away from you.
His hatred of women obviously became a hatred of his world. He had no ambition. No desire to work. No acceptance of his own life. No respect for the essence of who he was. No love for himself. I dont believe he was the product of his immediate environment. Or the society he lived in.
I do believe he was the product of online material that is increasingly part of young impressionable boy's lives. Online games. Violent video games. Online aggression towards women
Online Pornography. Online groups of hate filled men.
Would he have become this person if he had grown up without the internet and access to violence and online hate groups? I seriously doubt he would have.
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scalyboy
They’re taking the piss now
Horrendous stuff.
re. mention of pornography, I have been wondering whether the 24/7 availability of online porn for young boys has fuelled incel & PUA culture, in the sense of them viewing women as passive objects to be used, rather than actual human beings.
Having unfortunately read some sample posts from incel boards (in Laura Bates’ book etc), the degree of psychotic delusion with which they talk about women and girls as inhuman is so extreme.
I’m sure when I was a boy (pre-Internet) we never held such appalling views. Sure, we were sexist at times - until we learned better - but we never viewed girls as objects.
Back then, porn (jazz mags, basically) was very hard to come by.
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It is troubling the porn, Internet and unpleasant 'groups' spreading nastiness.
Don't get me wrong, am a fan of porn and dirty sex
but had I been at school watching a lot of what is online now it would have harmed me.
Teenagers are so self conscious and unsure in general. Seeing some bloke with a 10inch cock shagging an 8st lass is going to create harm.
Same with 'influencers' imo
effectively body shaming kids and selling them designer goods.
Fuck knows the answer to this shit?
Don't get me wrong, am a fan of porn and dirty sex
but had I been at school watching a lot of what is online now it would have harmed me.Teenagers are so self conscious and unsure in general. Seeing some bloke with a 10inch cock shagging an 8st lass is going to create harm.
Same with 'influencers' imo
effectively body shaming kids and selling them designer goods.Fuck knows the answer to this shit?
kalidarkone
Bringing YOU round.....
You mean towards
'White women' that have had relationships with men from darker races'
BigMoaner
We will all go together
it's like a kind of psychological disease, ifyswim. like you would get a cancer of the body - hey, spend enough time around incel shit and part of your soul will get diseased. more online extremism - subject transformation. start at the top of the rabit hole one type of person, fall out of it another.
hitmouse
so defeated, thinks it's funny
Yeah, this is a tricky subject, and has overlap with debates about BDSM and so on, but I think maybe "porn" is too vague and broadly-defined a term. I don't want to argue for censorship or anything, but it does feel like the exposure to not just sexual material but specifically material that depicts sex as being normatively violent, misogynistic, and so on, is maybe not something that has great effects. Thinking again about the nofap thing and similar movements, that feels to me like in some ways it's people recognising that the internet porn industry is not a great and healthy thing, but in the absence of proper sensible critiques of it they end up latching on to explanations of it being a Jewish conspiracy to drain their virility or whatever.
Idk, this is one of those things where I feel quite out of step with contemporary feminisms, which often seem a bit polarised between a fairly reactionary, pro-state SWERFy side and a more liberal side that's so scared of being called pro-censorship or SWERFy that they've dropped any critique of porn altogether. Or at least that's how it seems to me?
BigMoaner
We will all go together
Hardly look
NoT sure what that development would have been like if I was instead watch fisting, gang bangs, anal gapes etc
Not sure about anyone else but sexual feelings took years to develop, slowly, over time. The idea of eve just kissing a girl was enchanting throughout my teens. Later the mind slowly started to think about boobs and bums etc lol. It was all very slowly unfolding and enchanting.It is troubling the porn, Internet and unpleasant 'groups' spreading nastiness.
Don't get me wrong, am a fan of porn and dirty sex
Teenagers are so self conscious and unsure in general. Seeing some bloke with a 10inch cock shagging an 8st lass is going to create harm.
Same with 'influencers' imo
Fuck knows the answer to this shit?
NoT sure what that development would have been like if I was instead watch fisting, gang bangs, anal gapes etc
Ax^
Silly Rabbit
I look the guy up on reddit ( would not link to it here )and that ring pretty turn how he was not monitor more closely is beyond me
Poot
My wife thinks I work too hard
My kids have been away for a couple of days. At some point today i am definitely going to remind my son that most straight girls want a nice boyfriend, in the same way that most straight boys want a nice girlfriend. It really should be that simple. I wish it still was that simple.
BigMoaner
We will all go together
snap. i'm also going to educate them about the rabit hole concept. how it's easy to get sucked into a confirmation biased world view. will remind them if they are holding on too tightly to any idoleogy that they have learnt online then it will always be sensible to hear opposing voices. or to actually think about it themselves using their own experience. will educate them on the role of the "grifter" too - those who have a vested interest in capturing attention (using provoking, "controversial" content) for monetry gain. i will continue to preach about books. that a book, the autor alraedy has yoru attention because you have bought the book and will give it a go. normally they write a book out of expertiese, experience, or love.
hitmouse
so defeated, thinks it's funny
I also feel like it's worth stressing how much human behaviour is not, and never is, one-size-fits-all, and that even if most straight girls want a nice boyfriend there'll still be a huge amount of difference in how that's defined. Like, even if lots of girls don't consider being into video games or model trains or stamp collecting or being able to remember the names of books about the Spanish Civil War or whatever they're into a plus, there will be someone somewhere out there who thinks that it's a good thing.
(with the possible exception of being able to remember the names of books about the Spanish Civil War, absolutely no-one likes that.)
(with the possible exception of being able to remember the names of books about the Spanish Civil War, absolutely no-one likes that.)
Poot
My wife thinks I work too hard
Well of course. But the shooter seemed to have this idea that women were like some sort of mythical creature. My point was really that men and women are very similar with similar motivations and similar amounts of diversity within our populations. Which is the opposite of how an incel thinks.
Eta the Spanish civil war is a fascinating subject. You should always pick a partner who thinks so of course.
LeytonCatLady
Well-Known Member
Also that some girls don't want a boyfriend at all because they're happy being single and independent, but she may still want him as a friend and that's not some kind of failure or insulting consolation prize. And it definitely doesn't mean she'd rather go out with a bastard! (Not of course that I'm saying your son thinks that way, just speaking from personal experience of rejecting a guy who took it badly).
If incels and other misogynist groups & individuals were treated as terrorism/extremism/radicalisation networks, funding would be in place for much more monitoring and action in situations like this. He would have been much more likely to have appeared on state lists which would have led to him not having access to a gun.
hitmouse
so defeated, thinks it's funny
Yeah, agreed. But the idea that women (or men even) are only attracted to one specific sort of person and anyone who doesn't fit that model is falling short... obviously the incel lot take it to a wild extreme, but softer versions of it seem much more widespread throughout culture, sadly.
Poot
My wife thinks I work too hard
Oh yes of course. I was being deliberately simplistic to prove a point. It was a clumsy way of saying that men and women arent as different as an incel thinks they are. Both men and women frequently dont want a relationship at all.
Poot
My wife thinks I work too hard
When i said 'nice' obviously the parameters are pretty wide...
LeytonCatLady
Well-Known Member
Yeah I know, just adding my two cents that that's another reason you could give him why he might be rejected by a girl he likes, that has nothing to do with him as a person. The bit about men and women being fundamentally not that different is definitely something misogynists fail to grasp!
scalyboy
They’re taking the piss now
Yes, that sort of violent, non-consensual, passive-woman or bondage porn was the sort of thing I meant. Thing is, when you're an adult you can understand about role-play, safe words etc, but I doubt teenagers (and younger) would get those nuances, and would assume that some of the real nasty porn they see on their phones is normal.
I've definitely read about teachers and youth workers reporting a rise in teenage girls voicing their unhappiness at having been coerced into threesomes, anal and so on, sexual acts that they wouldn't themselves have chosen to do, but the boys had been pressurising them and telling them it was the done thing and if they didn't go along with it they were boring, dykes etc.
What a world we live in.
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LeytonCatLady
Well-Known Member
It's been removed now for breaking Twitter's TOU.
existentialist
Tired and unemotional
The cunt bills himself on Twitter as a "Homeopath specialising in the treatment of autism & PANDAS"
If there is not a professional body to report him to, that tells you quite a lot of what you need to know about homeopaths.
Oh, he has a website: https://alan freestone.com/ (deliberately broken, reassemble it yourself)
And you won't be surprised to learn that he's into treating coronavirus with supplements and homeopath.
The cuntitude just keeps multiplying
hitmouse
so defeated, thinks it's funny
With bamboo, presumably?
existentialist
Tired and unemotional
Homeopathic bamboo. And, in all probably, a certain amount of bamboozlement, too...
I donated 5 minutes of my life to his Twitter feed, and he ticks a lot of the boxes, most notably the Poor Little Old Me victim posture, following his all-too-brief Twitter ban (presumably for the misogynistic comment). And, of course, he's got his little echo chamber round him.
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