Several people shot dead in Plymouth 12 August 2021

[hitmouse]

Got around to listening to the first 40 minutes of it now, but I kept thinking about the uncertainty principle and wondering if I'd even notice the "ums" if it wasn't for people on here cryarsing about it. I think I'm just not that bothered by it sounding like some people having a conversation and sometimes being able to hear points where someone stops to think? Also I have to say it does feel a bit everydaysexism to assume that someone who spends all her time researching antifeminism would be unaware of the history and connotations of the term SJW? But yeah, definitely not a quick intro for beginners thing, but I think probably worth a listen if you're interested in learning more about the general ecosystem and history of these movements/scenes/whatever. I still have no idea who that picture of a man with a beard is though, they've not explained that bit. Anyone recognise him?

 

[hitmouse]

OK, if anyone just wants to listen to the discussion of Plymouth and incels specifically, it starts at about 57 minutes in.
Key points so far are that incel-ism or whatever doesn't have enough organisational coherence to be meaningfully described as a movement, for this reason we should be wary of the demand to describe incel stuff as terrorism, which comes from an understandable place but appeals to counter-terror narratives/strategies that, apart from all the other flaws with counter-terrorism stuff, are designed to deal with more organised networks. Also, there's a danger of sensationalist media coverage focusing on how weird and exceptional incel stuff is and the relatively spectacular stuff like this attack, which can miss how it's just one particularly extreme expression of the same misogyny that fuels stuff like endemic domestic violence.
Stresses that incels are always first and foremost a danger to the women in their lives, who are also the best-placed to spot warning signs - which is another reason why Prevent-type counter-terror strategies are flawed as a way of dealing with this stuff, because, for instance, a mother who's worried about her son might be extremely reluctant to report him if it's perceived that a likely result would be coercive state intervention like criminal charges or sectioning. There's a bit more but I've not listened to that yet.
If people can't cope with hearing ums and ahs then I can't really help you with that, but to describe it as surface-level still seems like a very odd criticism to me.

 

[hitmouse]

OK, finished listening to it now. Interesting points from around the end were: especially among men, expressions of loneliness, vulnerability, etc are often stigmatised, and this isn't helped by the culture of contemporary social media, which, particularly around instagram and so on, can often be a parade of people showing off a glossily edited version of only the most photogenic and aspirational moments of their lives. Which adds to the appeal of spaces which are more or less solely about confessions of loneliness, inadequacy and so on, which could serve a useful purpose if it wasn't for the fact that such spaces are seeping in the most toxic kinds of misogyny and misanthropy.
So, in terms of what we can do at a broader cultural level to make future incidents less likely and help to disrupt the recruitment process, allowing more space for such expressions in other, non-incel spaces and resisting/challenging the tendency to mock the lonely and awkward could help to decrease the allure of incel stuff. Which I suppose you can read as her making a case for the importance of U75, as a non-incel online space where people can express vulnerability?
There was also a plug at the end for a new podcast she's doing about vaccines, but I suppose if people aren't a fan of her presentation style then that might be a tough sell on this thread.

 

[ska invita]

Fair - still not listened myself, but I know the interviewee is part of the QAnonAnonymous lot (which I've also not listened to, but I know is quite highly rated), so would've expected her to be quite good at podcasts.

Also, if anyone wants a bit more research on weirdo internet anti-feminist stuff to brighten your day further, here's an article on the tradwife phenomenon: Why Are Gen Z Girls Attracted to the Tradwife Lifestyle?

interesting...especially the fear of collapse leading to neo fascist culture and values......but is it Gen Z or is it standard practice for the US kids of fundamentalists?

 

[hitmouse]

I suppose there is (and this is largely me repeating Beran's analysis) a bit of a... dialectical or whatever relationship between the very nihilistic, edgy no-values side of internet culture on the one side, and then the draw of this kind of ultra-traditional, or faux-traditional, Victorian/1950s values on the other side?

 

[Cid]

OK, finished listening to it now. Interesting points from around the end were: especially among men, expressions of loneliness, vulnerability, etc are often stigmatised, and this isn't helped by the culture of contemporary social media, which, particularly around instagram and so on, can often be a parade of people showing off a glossily edited version of only the most photogenic and aspirational moments of their lives. Which adds to the appeal of spaces which are more or less solely about confessions of loneliness, inadequacy and so on, which could serve a useful purpose if it wasn't for the fact that such spaces are seeping in the most toxic kinds of misogyny and misanthropy.
So, in terms of what we can do at a broader cultural level to make future incidents less likely and help to disrupt the recruitment process, allowing more space for such expressions in other, non-incel spaces and resisting/challenging the tendency to mock the lonely and awkward could help to decrease the allure of incel stuff. Which I suppose you can read as her making a case for the importance of U75, as a non-incel online space where people can express vulnerability?
There was also a plug at the end for a new podcast she's doing about vaccines, but I suppose if people aren't a fan of her presentation style then that might be a tough sell on this thread.

Her podcast seems pretty good. It’s structured, edited and has a sound engineer. The flaws in that one have nothing to do with her, interviews are just tricky and the hosts didn’t do a good job. I’d have a listen again, but I’m about incelled out at this point… it’s a grim and exhausting topic. I mean as an autistic long term single guy it does get a bit uncomfortable.

There’s another podcast called embrace the void that covered it a couple of years ago. I wouldn’t necessarily recommend it… but it did discuss an interesting distinction between those who have entered the er… culture… from an understandable place, and those who might enter it as part of a more narcissistic complex. I’m not sure how accurate it is to use a simple divide like that, but it did give some framework for how it got so profoundly toxic.

 

[ska invita]

I suppose there is (and this is largely me repeating Beran's analysis) a bit of a... dialectical or whatever relationship between the very nihilistic, edgy no-values side of internet culture on the one side, and then the draw of this kind of ultra-traditional, or faux-traditional, Victorian/1950s values on the other side?

seems plausible but id like to see more specifics on the demographics, as to who the parents are etc. before drawing too big a conclusion

 

[Cid]

Voice actors too; enjoying it. “Vaccines: the human story”

 

[ddraig]

As always, the comments

 

[Pickman's model]

As always, the comments

or, rather, the comment.

and the offending comment?

Spoiler

 

[ddraig]

or, rather, the comment.
View attachment 284864
and the offending comment?

Spoiler

View attachment 284868

On Leanne's FB post (the link posted) not actual article

 

[Pickman's model]

On Leanne's FB post (the link posted) not actual article

ah, i just clicked on the link and was taken to the article. don't do fb

 

[Saul Goodman]

As always, the comments

Which comments? I only see one.

 

[hitmouse]

As always, the comments

I suspect that my facebook-tracer-blocker thing is probably doing me a great favour here:

 

[extra dry]

UK based podcast about the topic and insight from a doctor talking about mental health.

 

[Elpenor]

And it won’t be a copper. Pound to a penny it will be a police staff member on £18 to £24 k…. (Maybe a retired cop although than often means someone who fucked up their retirement planning…)

Misconduct and gross misconduct charges for a police officer and a police staff member relating to the shootings.

Plymouth shootings: Police worker faces misconduct proceedings

A gross misconduct notice is issued to a police staff member over Jake Davison's shotgun certificate.

www.bbc.co.uk

I wonder if budget cuts could have anything to do with the failings of the firearms licensing department pf this police force?

 

[A380]

Misconduct and gross misconduct charges for a police officer and a police staff member relating to the shootings.

Plymouth shootings: Police worker faces misconduct proceedings

A gross misconduct notice is issued to a police staff member over Jake Davison's shotgun certificate.

www.bbc.co.uk

I wonder if budget cuts could have anything to do with the failings of the firearms licensing department pf this police force?

No Idea, But I bet that if you looked at the staffing levels 10 years ago and now you'd find a significant difference in numbers.

 

[Elpenor]

Plymouth shooting inquest: police took ‘high risk’ decision to return shotgun licence

Devon and Cornwall force say they did not have enough staff to deal with number of licensing applications

www.theguardian.com

The inquest has begun this week.

 

[likesfish]

Fuckwit should never have got a shotgun licence let alone have it returned

 

[SpookyFrank]

I wonder if budget cuts could have anything to do with the failings of the firearms licensing department of this police force?

That's a shit excuse. If there's a lack of capacity to process firearms licenses then people should just have to wait. What's the worst that could happen if a licence application is delayed, some arsehole of a farmer misses their chance to murder someone's dog.

The worst that could happen if you don't do things properly and rush gun licences through is, well it's exactly what did happen.

 

[Poot]

I've found the footage in the park really difficult to watch. We were all talking about him after it happened (as you do; that sort of thing goes around the school gates) and I couldn't let my kids go to the skate park for a while afterwards, little did we know what lay in store when he got his gun back ( ) I didn't realise the attack in the park was that brutal, though. It looks as though he could have killed the kid. Then you think, it could have been one of my kids...

He lived in an urban/suburban part of the city. For the life of me I don't know why he'd need a gun.

 

[Elpenor]

You’d hope there would be a tightening of gun laws, preventing them being stored at home perhaps?

 

[Jennaonthebeach]

Really shocking. I think in Devon - even in the two cities - there's still a bit of an attitude that things like this don't happen here. Just awful.

I was born in Keyham and my mum always said it was bad area. She got us out when i was 5. I like to think she was up there looking down and saying, "told you so."

 

[Ax^]

You’d hope there would be a tightening of gun laws, preventing them being stored at home perhaps?

hmm first off even if you are a farmer and require a shotgun for pest control or a competitive shooter who can store a gun in a police inspected gun safe at home

the first time you fucking assault anyone with your firearm or take it out to in public to prove a point

take it fucking away

the people who want guns are the type of people i don't want to see having them

 

[ouirdeaux]

I didn't follow the case at the time, so looked it up now. Ffs, how many red flags do there have to be before it's clear that someone shouldn't have a firearms licence? An obsession with guns and a history of threatening violence is a bit of a clue.

 

[Ax^]

his parents asking medical professional to intervene over the matter is fucking shocking
no follow up

lets give the angry young man back his gun


da fuck were they thinking

 

[Kevbad the Bad]

I was born in Keyham and my mum always said it was bad area. She got us out when i was 5. I like to think she was up there looking down and saying, "told you so."

It wasn't Keyham that committed this crime. Just one sick individual.