littlebabyjesus
one of Maxwell's demons
You're just being a dick now. It's reasonable for people to ask you to expand when you say stuff like 'in Switzerland you can'.
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Idaho
blah blah blah
This is very consistent with the rest of this thread. There is only one permitted narrative and that's one of complete criticism and vilification of all crypto forever. Anyone who doesn't participate in this precise manner has to undergo the inquisition on every little point. I had the nerve to correct one minor point about no taxes being payable in bitcoin, and rather than just move on, the inquisition demands that this point is only valid if I quote detailed Swiss tax law while at the same time claiming my point wasn't really valid because there is a lot of tax dodging in Switzerland.
not-bono-ever
meh
Zug allows you negotiate and to pay a flat annual tax sum irrespective of your wealth . It’s not representative of anything apart from zug
littlebabyjesus
one of Maxwell's demons
The point is that it isn't 'Swiss tax law', not really. It's like saying that the British Isles allows tax dodging, when what you are referring to is the Channel Islands.
Even if what you're saying about Zug is accurate, which you still haven't shown.
I note that you didn't answer my question btw. How would the world be a better place if something like bitcoin were being used as a unit of account?
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tommers
It was... Rebekah Vardy's account
Swiss Town to Accept Tax Payments in Bitcoin
The municipality of Chiasso in Switzerland will start accepting tax payments in bitcoin next year, according to a report.
Idaho
blah blah blah
Maybe I didn't answer the question because I don't know? Because I don't have a ready answer to all this. I realise that is heretical of me to be a little interested in discussing it without the need to parrot your stridency.
littlebabyjesus
one of Maxwell's demons
This is part of any measure of its 'success', though, is it not? And you were the one bringing up that concept.
If its 'success' involves little more than enabling illegal transactions in drugs and weapons and facilitating tax dodging (as in your Swiss example - the tax inspectors of Zug will not be asking too many questions about where the bc came from) then I don't call that success. It appears to me to be just another way for the rich to get richer and fuck the rest of us.
You bring stuff up then rile at the idea that it gets challenged. I'm not riling at the ideas being proposed in favour of this crap, neither is anyone else. We're (rather patiently, imo) pointing out exactly what we think is wrong with the ideas.
However, I am very clear where I stand on bc. It is evil and it needs to die. I don't hide that. But it's ironic that you use the word 'heretical' in this context. The blind faith is all on one side in this debate.
littlebabyjesus
one of Maxwell's demons
More details on Zug.
Citizens of the Swiss canton of Zug can now pay taxes using Bitcoin
It is clear that the Zuglanders are very keen crypto enthusiasts. But it's still not being used as a unit of account, even there.
Citizens of the Swiss canton of Zug can now pay taxes using Bitcoin
It is clear that the Zuglanders are very keen crypto enthusiasts. But it's still not being used as a unit of account, even there.
Idaho
blah blah blah
I think there is blind faith and ridiculous notions of evil and good all over the topic, but the vast majority are spread across the middle from indifference to mild interest/dislike. That you feel possessed to rail against it on all fronts going on about evil is a bit daft imo
littlebabyjesus
one of Maxwell's demons
The evil is the energy waste. That's not 'blind faith'.
And you come across as a bit of a cunt by claiming people's concerns about climate change aren't genuine.
Idaho
blah blah blah
And you come across a bit witch hunty to anyone that deviates in any way from your "it's evil" narrative.
The world is full of pointless energy waste. Maybe gold or gem mining should face some of that wrath too.
Saul Goodman
It's all good, man
Gold is useful. We need it for lots of things.
Idaho
blah blah blah
Less than 10% is. It's mainly used for speculation/wealth storage.
not-bono-ever
meh
Physical commodities have a practical use, that’s why they are commodities The energy spent is certainly worth questioning but it is built into the price. Yer aluminium takes around $1500 a ton or so in leccy to produce. There is nothing at the end of a BC 1500 worth of spend that we can do anything with.
Idaho
blah blah blah
It's not nothing, it's something - a secure decentralised ledger. You can say that this is not a useful thing or that it's a harmful thing, but it's not accurate to say that it's nothing
Saul Goodman
It's all good, man
There's a useful, tangible result from gold mining. Bitcoin mining costs more than gold mining and there's literally nothing to show for it. It's the biggest (and most successful) Ponzi scheme in the history of gullible people.
Idaho
blah blah blah
It's not a true Ponzi. It's a hybrid of a Ponzi, a pyramid and something new.
There isn't that much that's useful from gold. Mostly it's using huge amounts of energy (greater than bitcoin) for wealthy people to have shiny rocks.
I made a lengthy post about why Bitcoin is not and never will be money. You sought to undermine that by making a statement that some places are willing to accept Bitcoin as a unit of account. This seemed quite a remarkable assertion to me, so I asked for more details. Now I’m thinking that you don’t actually know, you’re just parroting a claim you heard.
The detail is important. If a tiny canton known as a tax haven is willing under certain conditions to accept Bitcoin payment for a small amount of some types of transaction tax, that is pretty meaningless. It’s not evidence of use as a unit of account, as you implied.
Furthermore, your original reference was that “Switzerland” was accepting it, which is just incorrect. You have to be very careful before asserting information on this kind of thing, because there is a big, big, huge difference. The Swiss government, who operate the state systems, issue Swiss Francs and require their accounts to be prepared in Swiss Francs and their taxes to be paid in Swiss Francs. So it turns out that your supposed counterexample is nothing of the kind.
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Saul Goodman
It's all good, man
Apart from the little things like processors, which are in just about every electronic device manufactured today?
Gold serves a purpose. We're using more and more of it on a daily basis, and most of it isn't getting recycled, so we will eventually run out of it. It's an extremely valuable comodity. Or you could invest in Bitcoin, because someone you know told you they made a lot of money from it, which they probably used to buy more Bitcoin.
BigTom
Well-Known Member
There is now the possibility that bitcoins can become tainted. You don't need to know who the wallet holder is if you can show that the coins in the wallet are there illegally/improperly, then miners can refuse to include the transaction on their block, and the coins become non-transferrable (until a miner who is fine with transferring tainted coins wins a block - but those coins remain tainted since they can always be tracked back to the illegal transaction).
I'm honestly not sure how this affects money laundering as that was the specific example I think but it makes things "interesting" for any illegal activity using bitcoin, and it's a big reason why monero is being used on a lot of dark net markets now. There was an "approved" block mined a few weeks or maybe a month ago but I can't find articles about that specifically as I can't remember the authority that it was approved under - a financial services authority of some kind I think. Supposedly meant no illegal activity transactions but people were able to show some transactions went to a russian darknet market so it hasn't worked. I did find this article from Forbes about money laundering that talks about this: You Can’t Launder Bitcoins!
and interestingly for the other conversation that's happening finishes with this little paragraph:
maomao
普費斯
No you bloody can't. I had a transaction go missing for days once and it's about a tenner a transaction at the moment. You're off your head if you think it can replace money.
Saul Goodman
It's all good, man
You sound exactly like someone I tried to warn about Banners Broker. She was in to the tune of about 15 grand. How heavily invested in Bitcoin are you? It's not unlike Stockholm syndrome.
q_w_e_r_t_y
You see an investment scam and I see divinity
Yes you can, you just need to pay enough fees (which is effectively how btc collects taxes - they are inbuilt in the system, tax avoidance is nigh on impossible)
If you want cheap fees - use the lightning network (where the fees/tax for the on-chain tx is paid by the person who is receiving).
What people arent getting here is that this is an entire paradigm shift. It transcends the nation state and will ultimately destroy it. Wibbling on about rich tax evaders as if rich people need bitcoin to dodge taxes.
There are AMAZING things going on in crypto at the moment, so many discussions around governance, justice, decentralisation, consensus decision making, resource allocation, community building - none of it is possible without bitcoin, but there the "radicals" sit, with folded arms insisting that the government will not give permission and therefore it cannot be done; that deflation will lead to slowing growth, while bemoaning the environmental destruction that the quest for endless growth has created.
You are behaving like a bunch of closed minded hypocrites.
What is so good about a currency which is issued by a nation state w determines who can use it, which can be hidden in tax havens and printed at will?
Saul Goodman
It's all good, man
This is where you lost me.
q_w_e_r_t_y
You see an investment scam and I see divinity
I am enormously invested, if bitcoin didnt exist, I dont know how I would deal with the state of the world.
Its the only thing that gives me hope that we might survive as a species.
Saul Goodman
It's all good, man
Or someone could come up with an alternative that isn't a glorified pyramid scheme.
q_w_e_r_t_y
You see an investment scam and I see divinity
Ok -
Nation state currency necessitates that there is a nation state.
Why are nation states a good thing?
Now imagine there's no countries ( as John Lennon said, it isnt hard to do)
but really imagine life without the nation state, no nation state to issue currency.
Who issues the currency? Companies? The world bank? Churches?
Under what rules?
Because my solution is maths. Maths issues the currency under the rules of mathematics.
I trust Maths a hell of a lot more than I trust Johnson, or Trump. Liberal democracy is dead, we dont know truth any more, we just know that they are lying to us, and they dont even bother pretending that they dont any more.
The nation state is an abomination. The British nation state is quite frankly evil. The Iraq war wasnt funded by bitcoin, trident isnt funded by bitcoin, the Windsor brood arent funded by bitcoin. I dont want to transact in Sterling. I dont want to give the British state any legitimacy, I want to destroy the nation state internationally, starting with the one that occupies the land on which I am standing.
maomao
普費斯
Horseshit. I paid the standard rate. The median transaction is 25 minutes but the outliers are astoundingly long and not limited to lower fee rates. When I make a paymet from my bank account it's near enough instantaneous and costs nothing at time of transfer (I'm aware banks make money, cheers). The 'lightning' network takes an 'average' (huge outliers again) ten minutes. And costs more.
The current average transaction fee is $13.25 and it recently peaked at $62.77. Currency of the future my arse.
I can buy stuff with it.
maomao
普費斯
I'm sure the masters of capitalism are shaking in their boots while you queue up to take half an hour and an extra tenner to buy a sandwich for lunch. You numpty.
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