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Beating the Fascists: The authorised history of Anti-Fascist Action

Joe Reilly said:
1. AFA never 'de-escalated'. There was never any pro-active response operationally to the BNP chucking it. There was a political assesment of where militant anti-fascism's responsibility lay should the BNP disengagement from the streets prove to be permanent.

It was multiple choice: should militant anti-fascism support efforts to fill the political void in working class areas or simply allow the BNP a free run at what is after all 'our', which is to say the Left's historic constituency?

Back Labour or the Trot left in doing so?

Or finally do nothing, sit on the sidelines, on the grounds that interfering politically was beyond the anti-fascist remit (Searchlight's position as articulated via Leeds/Huddersfield)?

(2). Post 1994 AFA operated exactly as before. Regional meetings were maintained. Surveillance was carried out. The national office was manned and funded. The website was kept updated. FT was produced distributed and sold as before. RA, on which the responsibility landed, always devoted sufficient resources in terms of personell and funds to maintain AFA profile and structures.

(3). Individually C18 membership was extremely dangerous, well capable of extreme violence, including murder ( and would have cut a swathe through traditional left had that been their target) but operated as a hooligan firm, were poorly led, and also suffered from state infiltration at leadership level.

(4). Red Action's developmemt of the IWCA outside of AFA was in addittion to the responsibilities addresssed in answer (2).

(5). Post 1997, it increasingly became apparent that there was little or nothing to do - unless you consider stalking hopelessly small groups that couldn't muster more than 50 degenerates nationally the epitome of anti-fascism, while ignoring the vastly superior numbers of the politically ambitious fascists massing in a different arena.

Which brings us back to the multiple choice oulined in (1).
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This is how I recollect events.
 
malatesta32 said:
you will never better 'toast brown, this time he wants his toast brown!'
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What about the gag at the concert in Nottingham when we nearly caused a riot in the pub next door with a rumour Terry had got food poisoning from a dodgy Chinese.......why whats happened the crowd were asking....'he's done too much too much foo yung''....we only just got out in time.
 
framed said:
I respect the Ayatollah for what he did during his period of anti-fascist activism, but not for some of his politically sectarian posts here.
Click to expand...

And I can assure you I respect all of you for your anti fascist activism, back in the day. However, that was then, this is now. It's always amusing when a loosely identifiable grouping of avid posters on Urban75, who seldom seem to claim IWCA membership, but nevertheless all "sing from the same political hymn sheet" , accuse a political critic of "sectarianism". "Pot and Kettle" time chaps. This IWCA 'esque grouping's comments can be tracked back on every thread on Urban for years rubbishing each and every political initiative by the radical Left - particularly broad united front anti fascist initiatives over the last few years. Indeed BtF, though generally an excellent book, is used to yet again float a deeply sectarian IWCA "line" on the Left - which is repeatedly caricatured as being innately ,hopelessly "Liberal, middle class, multiculturalist, ignoring the white working class, obsessed with identity politics" , and by a very non-logically-connected inference the entire political tradition of Socialism, is seen as therefore no longer "relevant" to the working class. Looks pretty "sectarian" politics and commentary to me. But then maybe when YOU lot are attacking the Left and every one of their initiatives , this is just "fair comment" ? Well maybe it is indeed. And maybe when commentator after commentator from the anarchist Left in particular , in books like "Physical Resistance" or periodic thread posts here, who were active when the argy bargy in the mid 1990's was occurring around the attempt by RA to funnel the AFA Network into the (we now know dead-end) non-socialist, localist, electorally focussed, IWCA project express their very different recall of the impact of RA's role in the mid to late 1990's on the continuing ability of anti fascists to organise against the still sporadic upsurges of fascist activity, then, and later, maybe that is genuine , "I was there... this is how I recall it", "fair comment " by them too ? Neither side actually need to be lying - it's how each side actually experienced that time and interprets events. Hann in "No Retreat is certainly in no doubt that the "line" from RA WASN'T to keep both the IWCA initiative AND AFA going in parallel. RA wanted to "fold" the AFA network into the IWCA project - on the basis that "street fascism was over.. It's time to get down onto the landings in White working class communities". A viable view then, but not one held by many others in the AFA Network . And given the peculiar politics of the IWCA - not an alternative political project that was likely to attract many people who wished to remain socialist activists to.

I've expressed many times my disagreement with the IWCA's politics. Which I think were mistaken, opportunist, workerist, and profoundly reactionery. However history has passed judgement on them by now too. It was a failed initiative - based on set of inaccurated judgements and perspectives. Let it rest in peace.

You've got to be able to "take it" as well as "dish it out" lads.. without wailing "sectarian" and "nasty man" at every critic. You used to be able to do that on the physical front back in the day, but on the debating front nowadays you all too often react to alternative views and criticism like a maiden aunt confronted by a rampant flasher.
 
[quote="ayatollah, post: 11999495,"the argy bargy in the mid 1990's was occurring around the attempt by RA to funnel the AFA Network into the (we now know dead-end) non-socialist, localist, electorally focussed, IWCA project express their very different recall of the impact of RA's role in the mid to late 1990's on the continuing ability of anti fascists to organise against the still sporadic upsurges of fascist activity, then, and later, maybe that is genuine , "I was there... this is how I recall it", "fair comment " by them too ? Neither side actually need to be lying - it's how each side actually experienced that time and interprets events."

What argy bargy? Thats the point people are trying to say they were against it all along when if they were they said nothing, Hann, John Severn etc are trying to put themselves into the history as defeated or pushed out politically when they werent. That and of course the idea that we had had enough and were past it- not like them of course.
I accept it is possible to interpret events differently but maybe you would consider why no dates, places etc are given for this argy bargy or why there was a 5 year gap between the heroic defeat of the afa rearguard on the IWCA and anything like a new organisation emerging.

"I've expressed many times my disagreement with the IWCA's politics. Which I think were mistaken, opportunist, workerist, and profoundly reactionery. "

You may have, though you haven't explained what you would have done in the circumstances we found ourselves in. You haven't explained how you would have adapted to suit the changed circumstances of the BNP moving onto new ground away from street violence.

Im sure you would have made a valuable contribution if you had been around in the 90s but as you weren't maybe you should moderate your tone at least, this isn't a matter between you and Joe its about lessons for future activists.
 
ayatollah said:
And I can assure you I respect all of you for your anti fascist activism, back in the day. However, that was then, this is now. It's always amusing when a loosely identifiable grouping of avid posters on Urban75, who seldom seem to claim IWCA membership, but nevertheless all "sing from the same political hymn sheet" , accuse a political critic of "sectarianism". "Pot and Kettle" time chaps. This IWCA 'esque grouping's comments can be tracked back on every thread on Urban for years rubbishing each and every political initiative by the radical Left - particularly broad united front anti fascist initiatives over the last few years. Indeed BtF, though generally an excellent book, is used to yet again float a deeply sectarian IWCA "line" on the Left - which is repeatedly caricatured as being innately ,hopelessly "Liberal, middle class, multiculturalist, ignoring the white working class, obsessed with identity politics" , and by a very non-logically-connected inference the entire political tradition of Socialism, is seen as therefore no longer "relevant" to the working class. Looks pretty "sectarian" politics and commentary to me. But then maybe when YOU lot are attacking the Left and every one of their initiatives , this is just "fair comment" ? Well maybe it is indeed. And maybe when commentator after commentator from the anarchist Left in particular , in books like "Physical Resistance" or periodic thread posts here, who were active when the argy bargy in the mid 1990's was occurring around the attempt by RA to funnel the AFA Network into the (we now know dead-end) non-socialist, localist, electorally focussed, IWCA project express their very different recall of the impact of RA's role in the mid to late 1990's on the continuing ability of anti fascists to organise against the still sporadic upsurges of fascist activity, then, and later, maybe that is genuine , "I was there... this is how I recall it", "fair comment " by them too ? Neither side actually need to be lying - it's how each side actually experienced that time and interprets events. Hann in "No Retreat is certainly in no doubt that the "line" from RA WASN'T to keep both the IWCA initiative AND AFA going in parallel. RA wanted to "fold" the AFA network into the IWCA project - on the basis that "street fascism was over.. It's time to get down onto the landings in White working class communities". A viable view then, but not one held by many others in the AFA Network . And given the peculiar politics of the IWCA - not an alternative political project that was likely to attract many people who wished to remain socialist activists to.

I've expressed many times my disagreement with the IWCA's politics. Which I think were mistaken, opportunist, workerist, and profoundly reactionery. However history has passed judgement on them by now too. It was a failed initiative - based on set of inaccurated judgements and perspectives. Let it rest in peace.

You've got to be able to "take it" as well as "dish it out" lads.. without wailing "sectarian" and "nasty man" at every critic. You used to be able to do that on the physical front back in the day, but on the debating front nowadays you all too often react to alternative views and criticism like a maiden aunt confronted by a rampant flasher.
Click to expand...

That was then and this is now:

ayatollah said:
A VERY important point to be made LiamO - hopefully for due noting by any younger comrades who might get involved in the rougher side of things in the future

- as someone who served jail time directly because of the systematically made up lies of just such a fantasist (see the sad ,farcical , OK also funny, tale of the Rochdale Nine in BTW). I subsequently came across a number of other anti-fascist wannabees definitely suffered from Munchausen Syndrome during my time in anti fascist activity - their attention seeking fantasies and lies are an ever present danger to activists.

As also covered in BTF, some Searchlight personnel also suffered from seriously overactive imaginations - a real pain for anyone trying to sort out what the facts are and what info to trust as a guide to action.

Not that I ever met him , but it seems from info on this thread that Dave Hann of No Retreat fame was also of this ilk - dangerous, dangerous types. AVOID.
Click to expand...

Avoid indeed.
 
ayatollah said:
And I can assure you I respect all of you for your anti fascist activism, back in the day. However, that was then, this is now. It's always amusing when a loosely identifiable grouping of avid posters on Urban75, who seldom seem to claim IWCA membership, but nevertheless all "sing from the same political hymn sheet" , accuse a political critic of "sectarianism". "Pot and Kettle" time chaps. This IWCA 'esque grouping's comments can be tracked back on every thread on Urban for years rubbishing each and every political initiative by the radical Left - particularly broad united front anti fascist initiatives over the last few years.





Indeed BtF, though generally an excellent book, is used to yet again float a deeply sectarian IWCA "line" on the Left - which is repeatedly caricatured as being innately ,hopelessly "Liberal, middle class, multiculturalist, ignoring the white working class, obsessed with identity politics" , and by a very non-logically-connected inference the entire political tradition of Socialism, is seen as therefore no longer "relevant" to the working class. Looks pretty "sectarian" politics and commentary to me. But then maybe when YOU lot are attacking the Left and every one of their initiatives , this is just "fair comment" ? Well maybe it is indeed. And maybe when commentator after commentator from the anarchist Left in particular , in books like "Physical Resistance" or periodic thread posts here, who were active when the argy bargy in the mid 1990's was occurring around the attempt by RA to funnel the AFA Network into the (we now know dead-end) non-socialist, localist, electorally focussed, IWCA project express their very different recall of the impact of RA's role in the mid to late 1990's on the continuing ability of anti fascists to organise against the still sporadic upsurges of fascist activity, then, and later, maybe that is genuine , "I was there... this is how I recall it", "fair comment " by them too ?



Neither side actually need to be lying - it's how each side actually experienced that time and interprets events. Hann in "No Retreat is certainly in no doubt that the "line" from RA WASN'T to keep both the IWCA initiative AND AFA going in parallel. RA wanted to "fold" the AFA network into the IWCA project - on the basis that "street fascism was over.. It's time to get down onto the landings in White working class communities". A viable view then, but not one held by many others in the AFA Network . And given the peculiar politics of the IWCA - not an alternative political project that was likely to attract many people who wished to remain socialist activists to.



I've expressed many times my disagreement with the IWCA's politics. Which I think were mistaken, opportunist, workerist, and profoundly reactionery. However history has passed judgement on them by now too. It was a failed initiative - based on set of inaccurated judgements and perspectives. Let it rest in peace.
Click to expand...

Until you actully begin to respond to previous posts where direct questions are put to you, and begin draw on actual quotes from BTF or the IWCA rather than simply make them up, with speech marks added "at either end" for added authenticity - or just as bad quote from the IWCA Wikipedia page when you might as well have submitted the original contribution yourself, then I'm inclined to dismiss you as provocateuring troll not worth the bother.

In addition lazily presenting Physical Resistance and No Retreat as seperate entities and presenting the two books reaching the identical conclusions as compelling - when they were both written by Dave Hann for the same reasons (money and revenge) is too absurd even for you.

Accordingly quoting Hann as an unimpeachable authority is beyond bonkers.

Are we 'forgetting' that he was expelled from AFA for his involvement in street robbery, that he lied about when he joined RA by at least 3 years, (proven by the RA archive) that he lied about when he went to Manchester by a similar amount, (proven by Demu on here) that he lied about what he did there, that he repeatedly presented himself in interviews as an 'AFA founding member' that he shamelessly padded out his CV with events he wasn't involved in at all, and has basically lied ever since.

Moreover, his, as you would have it, principled political oppostion to the analysis offered up in Ftv and the IWCA all came after he was bounced.

Basically he presented himself as a political martyr simply because it was a lot more convenient than explaining precisely what happened in the alley behind the gay club at 4 in the morning.

Tellingly no one else, not Louise, Deareg, Tilzey on here on the RA forum or in No Retreat, have ever had the nerve to try and explain it publicly either - not once in 15 years.

If Hann was as important as you believe why didn't he rally and lead the anarchist legions against the fascist hordes of mainly your imagination - add in the theme tune from Gladiator as required.

In summary, quoting Hann on questions relating to RA/AFA/IWCA is as reliable as quoting David Irving on questions about what Hitler knew about the Holocaust.


"
 
jackie 68 said:
Im sure you would have made a valuable contribution if you had been around in the 90s but as you weren't maybe you should moderate your tone at least, this isn't a matter between you and Joe its about lessons for future activists.
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This.

Ayatollah you are coming across like a scorned mistress. It is unbecoming.
 
Joe Reilly said:
Until you actully begin to respond to previous posts where direct questions are put to you, and begin draw on actual quotes from BTF or the IWCA rather than simply make them up, with speech marks added "at either end" for added authenticity - or just as bad quote from the IWCA Wikipedia page when you might as well have submitted the original contribution yourself, then I'm inclined to dismiss you as provocateuring troll not worth the bother.

In addition lazily presenting Physical Resistance and No Retreat as seperate entities and presenting the two books reaching the identical conclusions as compelling - when they were both written by Dave Hann for the same reasons (money and revenge) is too absurd even for you.

Accordingly quoting Hann as an unimpeachable authority is beyond bonkers.

Are we 'forgetting' that he was expelled from AFA for his involvement in street robbery, that he lied about when he joined RA by at least 3 years, (proven by the RA archive) that he lied about when he went to Manchester by a similar amount, (proven by Demu on here) that he lied about what he did there, that he repeatedly presented himself in interviews as an 'AFA founding member' that he shamelessly padded out his CV with events he wasn't involved in at all, and has basically lied ever since.

Moreover, his, as you would have it, principled political oppostion to the analysis offered up in Ftv and the IWCA all came after he was bounced.

Basically he presented himself as a political martyr simply because it was a lot more convenient than explaining precisely what happened in the alley behind the gay club at 4 in the morning.

Tellingly no one else, not Louise, Deareg, Tilzey on here on the RA forum or in No Retreat, have ever had the nerve to try and explain it publicly either - not once in 15 years.

If Hann was as important as you believe why didn't he rally and lead the anarchist legions against the fascist hordes of mainly your imagination - add in the theme tune from Gladiator as required.

In summary, quoting Hann on questions relating to RA/AFA/IWCA is as reliable as quoting David Irving on questions about what Hitler knew about the Holocaust.


"
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It wasnt in an alley it wasnt behind a gay club and it wasnt at 4am........

your exit from anti fascism was a betrayal and you attempt to hide the shame by this incessant demonisation of Hann. I think you should also look closely at how 'false' accusations' can be damaging.....a close look.
 
bignose1 said:
It wasnt in an alley it wasnt behind a gay club and it wasnt at 4am........

your exit from anti fascism was a betrayal and you attempt to hide the shame by this incessant demonisation of Hann. I think you should also look closely at how 'false' accusations' can be damaging.....a close look.
Click to expand...

1)Where , when and what was it then?
2) The false accusations against me made by your mate GP had you down as corroborating witness by the way.
3) You are one of the few people from that period I know who seem to have completely exited anti-fascism.
 
bignose1 said:
It wasnt in an alley it wasnt behind a gay club and it wasnt at 4am........

your exit from anti fascism was a betrayal and you attempt to hide the shame by this incessant demonisation of Hann. I think you should also look closely at how 'false' accusations' can be damaging.....a close look.
Click to expand...

But no denial that he did actually mug him. Nor that he targeted him because he was gay.
 
bignose1 said:
It wasnt in an alley it wasnt behind a gay club and it wasnt at 4am........
Click to expand...

what didn't happen in an alley behind a gay club at 4am?

if Dave & Mark didn't mug and rob a gay man near a gay club, surely the exact time & place of that not happening is fairly unimportant in the scheme of things?

if Dave & Mark didn't mug and rob a gay man near a gay club, why did the victim immediately ID them after they were caught by the motorbike cops moments after the mugging took place?

if Dave & Mark didn't mug and rob a gay man near a gay club, what were they both doing hanging around outside a gay club at 3am in the morning?

if Dave & Mark didn't mug and rob a gay man near a gay club, why was the victim's library card found in Dave's pocket when he was arrested?

if Dave & Mark didn't mug and rob a gay man near a gay club why did they need a constructed defence involving fake witnesses to construct a back story that forced the victim to crumble in court and the prosecution to go for a lesser deal of a fine for Mark and charges dropped for Dave?

if Dave & Mark didn't mug and rob a gay man near a gay club why did Dave never deny he'd done it when constructing the defence with said fake witness above

if Dave & Mark didn't mug and rob a gay man near a gay club, why was M found guilty of it? If Dave didn't take part in the mugging what was Dave doing with M at 3am in the backstreets of Hume when Mark was mugging a gay man near a gay club?

if Dave & Mark didn't set out to mug and rob a gay man near a gay club, why did Mark, after the arrest and in the presence of Dave and the false witness, make the comment that 'they had good run of it but were bound to get caught sooner or later' followed by laughter all round?

edit: sorry, posted this before I saw the two posts above making the same substantive point
 
jackie 68 said:
1)Where , when and what was it then?
2) The false accusations against me made by your mate GP had you down as corroborating witness by the way.
3) You are one of the few people from that period I know who seem to have completely exited anti-fascism.
Click to expand...

1) No idea

2) Who is GP

3) I dont know who the fuck you are...but I can assure you I did no such thing...there again talking out of your collective arses. You should however look at DC, GOS and the others who not only exited anti facsism nearly 20 years ago but have been a destructive factor since.
 
if you've no idea what did or didn't happen in an alley behind a gay club at 4 am why did you say it wasn't in an alley behind a gay club at 4 am?
 
bignose1 said:
1) No idea

2) Who is GP

3) I dont know who the fuck you are...but I can assure you I did no such thing...there again talking out of your collective arses. You should however look at DC, GOS and the others who not only exited anti facsism nearly 20 years ago but have been a destructive factor since.
Click to expand...

Ah its you Heddon....just worked it out. Well I think youll find I told GP I thought you were iffy...he chose to bring it up. My gut feeling..your a wrong un.
....now before you get your knickers in a twist Ive had plenty of this meself by your comrades. Your political history is fucking dodgy.
 
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