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Beating the Fascists: The authorised history of Anti-Fascist Action

I said Daves association with Turner was unhealthy ... blah
Liam Im dissapointed.

Stop it. Just... stop.

You're disappointed?

You've just brought your son... again... and now your ex into this? Why? If you were genuine could you not just refer to a personal conversation - without dragging innocent individuals into it?

You bring them in... and then attack me for it?

There is no gallery to play for sympathy here.
 
You should also remember the RA site brought in deeply personal references to me and family. I think you should get a grip of that.

More diversion and distraction. We are not on a long dead forum. We are on this one. And your behaviour is alarming, frankly.
 
...you fuck off to Ireland and reinvent yourself..your middle classness is laughable.

Or 'you move to Ireland and continue your working-class political activity and community activism' which is exactly what John did... including starting a Sinn Féin Cumann in a place where there had not been one for 50 years or more.

middle classness? Prolier than thou?

Stop this. You are making yourself look a bit of a nutter.
 
Stop it. Just... stop.

You're disappointed?

You've just brought your son... again... and now your ex into this? Why? If you were genuine could you not just refer to a personal conversation - without dragging innocent individuals into it?

You bring them in... and then attack me for it?

There is no gallery to play for sympathy here.
Sorry mate this is the real world they are real people. Adults not children any more. Mentioned mine not yours orf anyone else's so theres no problem......It didnt bother you when Daves children had to endure the type of shite being put out about their dad with duoble dollops. Stop moralising...I thought your training would allow you to understand that sort of thing.
 
More diversion and distraction. We are not on a long dead forum. We are on this one. And your behaviour is alarming, frankly.

The forum my dear was able to viewed as late as 2010. Were you not around with the launch of NR...that forum was a complete cess pit. And you shouldnt come out with the 'come on move on statements'...you bring up plenty from the past.
 
I am off for an extended break from Urban. No doubt you will still be here diverting, distracting, disembling and confabulating if and when I return.

Here is a picture of some squirrel shit.

th


That's how nutty you look on this thread.
 
I am off for an extended break from Urban. No doubt you will still be here diverting, distracting, disembling and confabulating if and when I return.

Here is a picture of some squirrel shit.

th


That's how nutty you look on this thread.

bs.jpg
 
And so am I Liam....you are a very decent fellow...we will never agree on some stuff and I apologise for any shitty staements said in a charged up atmosphere. I feel Im done here. And out of consideration for all good people on this forum Im taking a break...(on Saturday next I will come back with some pics etc.) Then Ill fuck off proper for a while.
 
It wasnt in an alley it wasnt behind a gay club and it wasnt at 4am........

your exit from anti fascism was a betrayal and you attempt to hide the shame by this incessant demonisation of Hann. I think you should also look closely at how 'false' accusations' can be damaging.....a close look.

Are you offering an alternative narrative to the mugging scenario?

If so, I'd like to read it...

At least you're no longer denying Dave's involvement in nefarious 'after hours' activities.
 
Your a cheeky cunt at best Heddon. Who the fuck do you think you are having a poke at my record. You infer in this post early on that I am dodgy and then at the end a completly made up story that I put someone in danger ahead of Searchlight. Thats bang out of order. It was my loyalty to others outside of Searchlight that led to me ending my relationship with them aroun 94. You however have the unique record of actually being too dodgy for Searchlight. They fucked you out of the door pronto. It was around this time you wre darting in and out of all sorts of groups that quite a few people had concerns.(nothing to do with being a Rangers fan..Leeds we can live with) Stockport County can be forgiven. Your political journey has been colourful to say the least but the only time I actually saw you fight a fascist I would have preferred you had stayed at home.

If a person's 'political journey' into AFA is, in and of itself, considered to be 'dodgy' then many more would fail your anti-fascist 'cricket test'. Many of those who led AFA in various branches and regions had been through the left. There is nothing inherently 'dodgy' in that. A 'political journey' might also imply political development and enlightenment.
 
The forum my dear was able to viewed as late as 2010. Were you not around with the launch of NR...that forum was a complete cess pit. And you shouldnt come out with the 'come on move on statements'...you bring up plenty from the past.

Iirc you claimed in an earlier post that you may have downloaded or printed out some of the content from the old RA forum that you found to be most offensive and personal. If you do have that material, why not publish it here with appropriate redactions (no pun intended)?
 
The ubiquitous 'Bob From Brockley' is all over that last page presenting himself as an expert on all things AFA & IWCA. I suspect he's the culprit for much of the falsehoods and revisionism. In fact, his name is on most of them.

Framed (and others), please let me know what falsehoods and revisionisms I have put on AFA or IWCA wikipedia pages and I will gladly remove them. I've just looked again at these pages and made some edits, but I've barely touched the IWCA page until today and with the AFA page am fairly sure I've not added anything that doesn't stand up. I think you might be thinking other people's edits are mine. Yes, I did put someone else's stuff that I removed from the Wikipedia page onto my own blog, for the sake of discussion and not because I agreed with it, but I didn't endorse it in any way.
 
Bob, I stand behind everything I said about AFA. Had I known you had posted this, I would have replied earlier.

Joe, I hope this is OK but I've copied your reply to my blog. I didn't realise you had replied either. Btw I never intended to make it look like I accepted Rance's version of this.
 
I've expressed many times my disagreement with the IWCA's politics. Which I think were mistaken, opportunist, workerist, and profoundly reactionery. However history has passed judgement on them by now too. It was a failed initiative - based on set of inaccurated judgements and perspectives. Let it rest in peace.

Yes indeed, you have expressed your disagreement with IWCA politic's or rather what you yourself singularly decided were iWCA politics - without - needless to say without ever quoting the IWCA on any IWCA policies.

But be that as it may, your chief groan, oft repeated is that the IWCA is 'non-socialist'.

Your lazy and concieted assumption being that the IWCA critique of the extant socialist Left/society must necessarily come from the right. Which many not least Labour Lib Dem oppoenents on the ground would regard with astonishment. In fact, when looked at objectively the IWCA take on on society and your much beloved milk and water socialism is from a communist perspective.

Not communism with a 'big C', or even a small one, not communism through the prism of the 20th century or bolshevism, but the communist method of work as outlined by M&E adapted to circumstance.

It is only necessary to look at Eastleigh to see the thinking behind it. At one end UKIP and the other Tusc.The former having clearly been nudged, away from being a largely dormant single issue party (with many less cllrs that the BNP, and indeed less than the IWCA not too many years ago) outside of European elections are now hungrily filling the vacuum. In places like Rotherham, Middlesbro, Barnsley, it indicates as some research does seem to show, they are reaching out to and gobbling up what might previously considered the BNP demographic.

In interviews on Newsnight voters flagged 'immigration' as the main reason why they were voting UKIP. Very visibly it is they rather than the BNP who now represent far-right aspirations electorally.

Of course one problem with 'borrowing' the 'BNP vote', is that you must continue to constantly nurture it, or having both grown and normalised the asset, risk at some critical stage, as a result of you being 'out-radicalised' seeing it return to base.

So that's one side of Eastlieigh.

The other was represented by Ken Loach on Question Time. He rightly pointed out that UKIP represented 'a protest vehicle for the right' and stated what was needed was for it to be balanced by one on the Left. However he clearly believed that this required no more than a sufficiently loud rallying call - without - the necessity of ever addressing how precisely it would present itself 'on the landings' to what is very clearly now the Left's former constituency.

62 votes all too accurately reflects the consequences of not making strategy a consideration and where socialism now stands as a result of failing, over a minimum of 20 years to come to terms with what is really happening up and down the country.

To put this in some perspective; 62 votes is also roughly a tenth of what one IWCA candidate took in a council ward election in Islington in 2006. The IWCA also came within around a 100 votes of a seat in a neighbouring ward. But for the activists on the ground the 3,000 ticks against the IWCA across just two wards was nevertheless regarded with deep disappointment.

That was because they believed in the project (inseperable from a political belief in the working class itself) and were working to a precise plan, and thus set about their work with a purpose. Essentially they wanted to be in a position to compete.

Again could the contrast with Eastleigh be any greater?

Either way what must surely be obvious by now is that if progressive opinion is ever to seriously get it's act together 'taking note of the IWCA' as a Red Pepper article once put it, 'will be as a good a place to start as any'.

After the Eastleigh humiliation we might ever so tentatively substitute the 'if' with a 'when'.

A poster remarked a couple of years back that the 'IWCA was twenty years too late'. Today, with evidence of the drift to the right beyond dispute, (it's easy to forget that the BNP was still a full 7 years away from it's ist elected cllr in 1995) it might be more convincingly argued the launch was twenty years too early.

Ultimately the choice is straightforward: either you make the necessary adjustments to allow you compete (the 'streets' or 'landings' being one and the same thing) or you fail to do so, and capitulate.
 
"A poster remarked a couple of years back that the 'IWCA was twenty years too late'. Today, with evidence of the drift to the right beyond dispute, (it's easy to forget that the BNP was still a full 7 years away from it's ist elected cllr in 1995) it might be more convincingly argued the launch was twenty years too early."

That might well have been me Joe. It is something that I often think hampers the IWCA project, that the 20 years post Thatcher saw the dismantling of the very communities that would be the IWCA base.

But, yeah, I like the 20 years early idea. ;)

Certainly nothing much has come from the Left in the meantime that comes anywhere near as close as the IWCA did (and hopefully still do) to "having a new plan" however flawed and limited it may prove to be.
 
Framed (and others), please let me know what falsehoods and revisionisms I have put on AFA or IWCA wikipedia pages and I will gladly remove them. I've just looked again at these pages and made some edits, but I've barely touched the IWCA page until today and with the AFA page am fairly sure I've not added anything that doesn't stand up. I think you might be thinking other people's edits are mine. Yes, I did put someone else's stuff that I removed from the Wikipedia page onto my own blog, for the sake of discussion and not because I agreed with it, but I didn't endorse it in any way.

So do you have the whiphand?
 
So do you have the whiphand?

I'm not sure what you mean. Anyone can edit a Wikipedia page, and anyone can edit it back again. If you see falsehoods, just edit them out. If I see something I know to be false, I edit it out. If I see something I think might be true but there's no evidence to back it up, I do something like cut and paste it to the discussion page so people can discuss it and put it back in if there's evidence.
 
"A poster remarked a couple of years back that the 'IWCA was twenty years too late'. Today, with evidence of the drift to the right beyond dispute, (it's easy to forget that the BNP was still a full 7 years away from it's ist elected cllr in 1995) it might be more convincingly argued the launch was twenty years too early."

That might well have been me Joe. It is something that I often think hampers the IWCA project, that the 20 years post Thatcher saw the dismantling of the very communities that would be the IWCA base.

But, yeah, I like the 20 years early idea. ;)

Certainly nothing much has come from the Left in the meantime that comes anywhere near as close as the IWCA did (and hopefully still do) to "having a new plan" however flawed and limited it may prove to be.

No matter how 'flawed and limited the IWCA plan' may be deemed to be, we need to bear in mind that what is presented as the plan for the IWCA by it's many detractors is nine times out of ten, no better than a parody. A caricature.

Indeed outside of the original sponsors very few would probabaly have been privy to the original plan at all.

Even in the AFA discussions around '95 the focus was mainly on the existence of the vacuum and the political responsibility of militants, (if it did indeed exist) to help fill it - not the type of formation that might do it. Much less how it might be done. I don't think we ever got that far.

Ps: In the meantime cheers for the 'twenty years too late' remark it saved me having to make it up. :)
 
I'm not sure what you mean. Anyone can edit a Wikipedia page, and anyone can edit it back again. If you see falsehoods, just edit them out. If I see something I know to be false, I edit it out. If I see something I think might be true but there's no evidence to back it up, I do something like cut and paste it to the discussion page so people can discuss it and put it back in if there's evidence.

I think the point was made earlier in the thread that there's been difficulties encountered when attempting to make changes to the IWCA and AFA pages on Wiki. That you appear to already have an 'in' there is good imho, but it also places a certain amount of responsibility on you to give your entries some substance by reference to AFA and IWCA sources, even if your submissions are critical. I also recognise what you're saying in post #4422, you may well be attempting to achieve the very opposite of the current perception, i.e. a fair and balanced account of the IWCA and AFA, but it's not apparent so far.
 
I take it that means the original plan is something that one can get the chance of reading only if one is a member?

No - the discussions within AFA did not go so far as to hammer out the precise nature and programme of the organisation that would 'fill the vacuum' - only that the vacuum existed, that the far right would fill it if the left didn't, that the left had shown itself incapable of filling it and that, as a consequence, filling it was up to us. I don't think there was any fully worked out plan at that stage - we were entering new territory, so there couldn't be.
 
I think the point was made earlier in the thread that there's been difficulties encountered when attempting to make changes to the IWCA and AFA pages on Wiki. That you appear to already have an 'in' there is good imho, but it also places a certain amount of responsibility on you to give your entries some substance by reference to AFA and IWCA sources, even if your submissions are critical. I also recognise what you're saying in post #4422, you may well be attempting to achieve the very opposite of the current perception, i.e. a fair and balanced account of the IWCA and AFA, but it's not apparent so far.

Thanks Framed. Fair enough. I've only got an "in" by being persistent in editing the pages I try and keep an eye on. It's the good and the frustrating thing about Wikipedia how easy it is to mess with. I've put quotes from Fighting Talk into these articles, some of which have been edited out by others. I've added links to archived AFA and Red Action leaflets, and to IWCA pages. There's been a reference to Beating the Fascists for some time on the AFA page. If you notice anything particular that's dodgy or write something in that gets edited out, give me a shout.
 
Thanks Framed. Fair enough. I've only got an "in" by being persistent in editing the pages I try and keep an eye on. It's the good and the frustrating thing about Wikipedia how easy it is to mess with. I've put quotes from Fighting Talk into these articles, some of which have been edited out by others. I've added links to archived AFA and Red Action leaflets, and to IWCA pages. There's been a reference to Beating the Fascists for some time on the AFA page. If you notice anything particular that's dodgy or write something in that gets edited out, give me a shout.

1.The AFA story began not with an imaginary critique of the ANL long defunct - but in direct response to the 100 strong daylight light attack on the GLC free festival in the summer of 85'.

2. Almost needless to say there is no refence at all to the 'no more marches meetings punch-ups' declaration by BNP in 94, which is surely pivotal, but is also central to the argument pursued by Louise Purbick and Dave Renton to mention just two. Instead the narrative jumps from Isle of Dogs 1993 - to FTV in 1995 and talk of much 'internal recrimination' - the revisionist trope of choice, so perhaps the omission though glaring is not so surprising given the investment on this thread an elsewhere in maintaining the myth.


3. C18 specifically set up to deal with the AFA stewards group dosen't rate a mention.

4. Nor does Fighting Talk, while a criticism of the ideological dimension is allowed to stand.

5. There is no mention of the fall out from Welling March and subsequent World In Action 'AFA expose' and Searchlight's role behind the scenes.

6. And again Leeds was not suspended for 'ignoring' policy on collaborating with Searchlight but because the branch was exposed as an entryist op who sought to subvert AFA from within.


7.Note too that NP and AFN have been mischieviously tacked on at the bottom strongly suggesting continuity but totally inaccurate - while the date for the Main Event clash with B&H is wrongly put as 1988.

Some of this might have been forgiveable before BTF - but more than two years after?

Not laying it all at your door and I could go on, but you get the picture.

The IWCA one is hardly any better.

As they stand a misleading mess.

The question is, can we do anything about it?


edit The other question is does it actually matter?
 
Yes indeed, you have expressed your disagreement with IWCA politic's or rather what you yourself singularly decided were iWCA politics - without - needless to say without ever quoting the IWCA on any IWCA policies.

But be that as it may, your chief groan, oft repeated is that the IWCA is 'non-socialist'.

Your lazy and concieted assumption being that the IWCA critique of the extant socialist Left/society must necessarily come from the right. Which many not least Labour Lib Dem oppoenents on the ground would regard with astonishment. In fact, when looked at objectively the IWCA take on on society and your much beloved milk and water socialism is from a communist perspective.

Not communism with a 'big C', or even a small one, not communism through the prism of the 20th century or bolshevism, but the communist method of work as outlined by M&E adapted to circumstance.

It is only necessary to look at Eastleigh to see the thinking behind it. At one end UKIP and the other Tusc.The former having clearly been nudged, away from being a largely dormant single issue party (with many less cllrs that the BNP, and indeed less than the IWCA not too many years ago) outside of European elections are now hungrily filling the vacuum. In places like Rotherham, Middlesbro, Barnsley, it indicates as some research does seem to show, they are reaching out to and gobbling up what might previously considered the BNP demographic.

In interviews on Newsnight voters flagged 'immigration' as the main reason why they were voting UKIP. Very visibly it is they rather than the BNP who now represent far-right aspirations electorally.

Of course one problem with 'borrowing' the 'BNP vote', is that you must continue to constantly nurture it, or having both grown and normalised the asset, risk at some critical stage, as a result of you being 'out-radicalised' seeing it return to base.

So that's one side of Eastlieigh.

The other was represented by Ken Loach on Question Time. He rightly pointed out that UKIP represented 'a protest vehicle for the right' and stated what was needed was for it to be balanced by one on the Left. However he clearly believed that this required no more than a sufficiently loud rallying call - without - the necessity of ever addressing how precisely it would present itself 'on the landings' to what is very clearly now the Left's former constituency.

62 votes all too accurately reflects the consequences of not making strategy a consideration and where socialism now stands as a result of failing, over a minimum of 20 years to come to terms with what is really happening up and down the country.

To put this in some perspective; 62 votes is also roughly a tenth of what one IWCA candidate took in a council ward election in Islington in 2006. The IWCA also came within around a 100 votes of a seat in a neighbouring ward. But for the activists on the ground the 3,000 ticks against the IWCA across just two wards was nevertheless regarded with deep disappointment.

That was because they believed in the project (inseperable from a political belief in the working class itself) and were working to a precise plan, and thus set about their work with a purpose. Essentially they wanted to be in a position to compete.

Again could the contrast with Eastleigh be any greater?

Either way what must surely be obvious by now is that if progressive opinion is ever to seriously get it's act together 'taking note of the IWCA' as a Red Pepper article once put it, 'will be as a good a place to start as any'.

After the Eastleigh humiliation we might ever so tentatively substitute the 'if' with a 'when'.

A poster remarked a couple of years back that the 'IWCA was twenty years too late'. Today, with evidence of the drift to the right beyond dispute, (it's easy to forget that the BNP was still a full 7 years away from it's ist elected cllr in 1995) it might be more convincingly argued the launch was twenty years too early.

Ultimately the choice is straightforward: either you make the necessary adjustments to allow you compete (the 'streets' or 'landings' being one and the same thing) or you fail to do so, and capitulate.

"Ukip which I founded has sadly become a new version of the BNP with a principal focus on immigration and Islam as shown by its flagship 2010 policy to ban the burka and Nigel Farage's claim on Question Time that London's housing shortage was due to council properties being given to migrants the day after they stop off the plane."

Dr Alan Sked London Evening Standard, March 4
 
No - the discussions within AFA did not go so far as to hammer out the precise nature and programme of the organisation that would 'fill the vacuum' - only that the vacuum existed, that the far right would fill it if the left didn't, that the left had shown itself incapable of filling it and that, as a consequence, filling it was up to us. I don't think there was any fully worked out plan at that stage - we were entering new territory, so there couldn't be.

thanks for that past caring. i've always liked what ive heard about the iwca...
 
"Ukip which I founded has sadly become a new version of the BNP with a principal focus on immigration and Islam as shown by its flagship 2010 policy to ban the burka and Nigel Farage's claim on Question Time that London's housing shortage was due to council properties being given to migrants the day after they stop off the plane."

Dr Alan Sked London Evening Standard, March 4

Not like when Sked used to witter on about fishermen being forced to wear hair nets and condoms on the North Sea
 
The question is, can we do anything about it?

edit The other question is does it actually matter?

I'll have a look at the AFA page and do some editing today, and then see if it gets edited back... I think it does matter, as, sadly, more people get their information from Wikipedia than from original sources or from books like BTF.
 
I'll have a look at the AFA page and do some editing today, and then see if it gets edited back... I think it does matter, as, sadly, more people get their information from Wikipedia than from original sources or from books like BTF.

Why are you editing the AFA wiki page at all? Have I missed the obvious here? What's it got to do with you? :confused:
 
Why are you editing the AFA wiki page at all? Have I missed the obvious here? What's it got to do with you? :confused:

Anyone can edit Wikipedia; that's its whole point. I thought the discussion here earlier was that people were complaining the AFA page was a mess and that attempts to improve it were blocked? I've made some edits today http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anti-Fascist_Action mostly based on suggestions above. I didn't do anything about Welling, C18 or Leeds as I don't know enough about them.
 
Anyone can edit Wikipedia; that's its whole point. I thought the discussion here earlier was that people were complaining the AFA page was a mess and that attempts to improve it were blocked? I've made some edits today http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anti-Fascist_Action mostly based on suggestions above. I didn't do anything about Welling, C18 or Leeds as I don't know enough about them.

But what's your interest? Why edit this page and not the millions of others on Wiki?
 
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