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Why do peoples not understand that immigration is currently based on 'pull'?

D

durruti02

love and rage!
Immigration is push and pull affair .. there are many situation historically and ion othger countries where masses have been pushed to other countries .. e.g. the irish famine, but currently immigration is essentially in the UK a PULL issue.

If companies were not looking to cut costs/wages there would be no work. And people outside of the uk are only to aware that this is a country where anything goes, after 25 years of neo liberalism, that is is worth emnigrating too, where it is possible to get work EVEN with millions out if work.

There is an obsession from jim page any swpies vp and all that immigration is somehow a voluntary or a 'push' act and unlike everthing else under capitalim somehow divorced from seperate from unconnected with capitalism.

If it were NOT for neo liberalism now there would NOT be immigration at anything like the scale it is now.

Why is this important? Because we are constantly told the alternative to open borders is barbed wire and machines guns. NO it is not. It is simple measures to make employers source not just produce locally but labour.

Yes yes yes this is a bit 'transitional demand' but in the here and now it will help rebuild communities and the IDEA that we can have some control over our destinies which the left seem to have given up hope of changing
 
durruti02 said:
There is an obsession from jim page any swpies vp and all that immigration is somehow a voluntary or a 'push' act and unlike everthing else under capitalim somehow divorced from seperate from unconnected with capitalism.
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Utter bullshit. There is no such belief that I'm aware of, still less an "obsession".
 
This, for example, is from the OP of the "Too many immigration threads?", er, thread:

"Economic migration is caused by the effect of neo-liberal economic policies ..." How, precisely, does that suggest the poster thinks that migration's a voluntary act entirely disconnected from capitalism?

Frankly, this here thread encapsulates perfectly the problem with all the anti-immigration threads: they're based on an entirely distorted reading of what the "no borders" position actually is.

It's just noise.:rolleyes:
 
immigration is currently based on 'pull'
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It's based on 'push' and 'pull'.

To put it another way, the reasons many people move from economically less developed countries to economically more developed countries (including Britain), and many more would if they could, are rooted in the differences between the two groups of countries.
 
durruti02 said:
There is an obsession from jim page any swpies vp and all that immigration is somehow a voluntary or a 'push' act and unlike everthing else under capitalim somehow divorced from seperate from unconnected with capitalism.
Click to expand...

Oi, if you're going to accuse me of something have the good grace to post proof, otherwise shut the fuck up with your name-calling, Mr "anti-fascism is a waste of time".
 
durruti02 said:
Immigration is push and pull affair .. there are many situation historically and ion othger countries where masses have been pushed to other countries .. e.g. the irish famine, but currently immigration is essentially in the UK a PULL issue.
Click to expand...
So people don't at all feel a "push" from their own countries due to low wages, corruption, environmental degredation etc?
If companies were not looking to cut costs/wages there would be no work. And people outside of the uk are only to aware that this is a country where anything goes, after 25 years of neo liberalism, that is is worth emnigrating too, where it is possible to get work EVEN with millions out if work.
Click to expand...
Are you talking about illegal immigrants, or about EU guestworkers? it's always hard to tell when you're having a rant.
There is an obsession from jim page any swpies vp and all that immigration is somehow a voluntary or a 'push' act and unlike everthing else under capitalim somehow divorced from seperate from unconnected with capitalism.
Click to expand...
What a load of pish. Don't attribute simplistic one-sided views to me that I don't hold, or I'll start treating your posts like I do those of tbaldwin; as a joke.
If it were NOT for neo liberalism now there would NOT be immigration at anything like the scale it is now.
Click to expand...
Rubbish.
Look at the scale of population transfers (forced and voluntary) over the last 300-400 years. Movement between states is as old as capitalism, the difference is that it's more noticable now.
Why is this important? Because we are constantly told the alternative to open borders is barbed wire and machines guns. NO it is not. It is simple measures to make employers source not just produce locally but labour.
Click to expand...
"Barbed wire and machine guns"? Who tells you that?
It isn't an opinion I've seen expressed on Urban except as an aside by you and your fellow-travellers, when you haven't got a strong enough argument to get by without resorting to nonsense. It's not an opinion anyone rational would bother holding.
 
yeah, it's another one of those things that no matter how many times people on here show that they're aware of the issues, certain people like to make out that we're not.
 
Captain, I do think that are taking a rigid mechanistic and maybe unrealistic viewpoint on immigration here......how about people actually wanting to live in another culture or experience London/UK ?

Not all migrants are working 18 hour days in the fields of East Anglia and saving every penny for their impoverished families back home - some are actually living in London and enjoying the experienece of just being here.

Sorry captian, your standpoint smells of orthodox stalinist processs - there much more going on
 
Pigeon said:
"Economic migration is caused by the effect of neo-liberal economic policies ..." How, precisely, does that suggest the poster thinks that migration's a voluntary act entirely disconnected from capitalism?
Click to expand...

Actually its pretty reasonable to read this as a push effect. Not that there's anything wrong with that. A point that durrutti is missing is that there is considerable push from sending national governments.

Besides if you read durrutti carefully you would see that he is not talking about pure economic push and pull but politicised push and pull. So your quote merely verifies his point.

Pigeon said:
Frankly, this here thread encapsulates perfectly the problem with all the anti-immigration threads: they're based on an entirely distorted reading of what the "no borders" position actually is.

It's just noise.:rolleyes:
Click to expand...

Yep, there's a whole lotta distorting going on.
 
Knotted said:
ts.
So your quote merely verifies his point.
Click to expand...

My quote that "Economic migration is caused by the effect of neo-liberal economic policies ..." verifies his point that "There is an obsession from jim page any swpies vp and all that immigration is somehow...unlike everthing else under capitalim somehow divorced from seperate from unconnected with capitalism"?

You truly are reading deep.
 
Open borders arguers think that:
unlike everthing else under capitalim somehow divorced from seperate from unconnected with capitalism
Click to expand...

That's a good point. Views often descend into things like "free movement is a human right!" and liberal nonsense like that. The idea that capital is in charge seems to be ignored when it comes to immigration by some.
 
mk12 said:
Open borders arguers think that:

That's a good point. Views often descend into things like "free movement is a human right!" and liberal nonsense like that. The idea that capital is in charge seems to be ignored when it comes to immigration by some.
Click to expand...

I give up.

*places gun in mouth*
 
98% of people support borders - do you want to place a gun in your mouth when you hear pro-border arguments all the time? You must be suicidal most of the time.
 
mk12 said:
98% of people support borders - do you want to place a gun in your mouth when you hear pro-border arguments all the time? You must be suicidal most of the time.
Click to expand...


Setting aside my suspicion that the statistic you've just quoted came straight out of your arse, my suicidal impulses spring from the fact that, as usual on one of these godforsaken threads, no cunt is actually engaging with what anyone's positions actually are, preferring to construct phantoms and then pillory them.
 
Setting aside my suspicion that the statistic you've just quoted came straight out of your arse
Click to expand...

Just going by opinion polls and personal experience.

no cunt is actually engaging with what anyone's positions actually are, preferring to construct phantoms and then pillory them.
Click to expand...

In my experience, durruti has a point. I haven't trawled through the endless threads on immigration here, so I didn't know what your or others views on immigration are. In my experience of the left, pro-immigration views have often centred around the "human right" aspect, and this idea of "free movement" and "why can't people live where they want" etc. As Durruti said, as if the immigration issue was seperate from and unconnected with capitalism.
 
mk12 said:
In my experience of the left, pro-immigration views have often centred around the "human right" aspect, and this idea of "free movement" and "why can't people live where they want" etc. As Durruti said, as if the immigration issue was seperate from and unconnected with capitalism.
Click to expand...

Given that I've quoted an example of a post that quite specifically demonstrates that *not* to be the case, you'd possibly be so kind as to provide a quote illustrating your standpoint?

Otherwise, forgive me for concluding that you've also pulled that conclusion out of your crevice.
 
Given that I've quoted an example of a post that quite specifically demonstrates that *not* to be the case, you'd possibly be so kind as to provide a quote illustrating your standpoint?
Click to expand...

I can't quote conversations I have had with leftists in real life unfortunately.
 
I've just said tarra to a mate who has emigrated to Spain and another to Australia - he gets married to an Australian (who emigrated there from Canada) this Easter at the beach in Sydney.

Is this "push", or "pull"? :confused:
 
mk12 said:
As Durruti said, as if the immigration issue was seperate from and unconnected with capitalism.
Click to expand...

The demand for the free movement of labour is obviously connected to capitalism. What point are you making here?
 
mk12 said:
Open borders arguers think that:

That's a good point. Views often descend into things like "free movement is a human right!" and liberal nonsense like that. The idea that capital is in charge seems to be ignored when it comes to immigration by some.
Click to expand...

Often?

Not that I've noticed.

In fact most of the time, except for the idealogues, most of what I've read hasn't been that cut and dried.
 
mk12 said:
98% of people support borders - do you want to place a gun in your mouth when you hear pro-border arguments all the time? You must be suicidal most of the time.
Click to expand...

Evidence please? Where is the data to support your contention?

It doesn't exist. I thought as much.
 
My only quam with mass immigration is whether an economy can handle a massive number of people coming in, if the economy has the resources to handle this, and the infrastructure to accommodate it. These are reasons why open borders are a nonsense utopian idea, everyone would just live in Westernized countries, fucking up not only the countries they come to but the one's they left.
 
N_igma said:
These are reasons why open borders are a nonsense utopian idea, everyone would just live in Westernized countries, fucking up not only the countries they come to but the one's they left.
Click to expand...

Not necessarily but if one continues to think in terms of states and states alone then we will never make progress. For centuries, many people thought that the earth was flat and any dissenting points of view were swiftly dealt with by the authorities (Galileo is a prominent example). This view of the earth had the effect of not only stifling debate but it also prevented any real intellectual progress from taking place.

The world is the sum of its parts and there are many who would see "westernisation" as an anathema.
 
nino_savatte said:
Not necessarily but if one continues to think in terms of states and states alone then we will never make progress.
Click to expand...

It's how humans govern themselves. We've been doing it since we began to organise ourselves into societies; empires, states, they're all the same thing.

nino_savatte said:
For centuries, many people thought that the earth was flat and any dissenting points of view were swiftly dealt with by the authorities (Galileo is a prominent example). This view of the earth had the effect of not only stifling debate but it also prevented any real intellectual progress from taking place.
Click to expand...

That's through scientific exploration. Politics is a different ball park. We're smart enough not to have states, we just choose to have them for economic reasons.

nino_savatte said:
The world is the sum of its parts and there are many who would see "westernisation" as an anathema.
Click to expand...

The term is an abstraction, however, there is a heavy concentration of wealth and resource in countries that are seen as "Western." The people who control this wealth want to consolidate it and are not willing to share it out with others. We need to distribute the wealth worldwide so people from other countries don't feel the need to risk life and death in order to get here.
 
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