Why do peoples not understand that immigration is currently based on 'pull'?

[nino_savatte]

It's how humans govern themselves. We've been doing it since we began to organise ourselves into societies; empires, states, they're all the same thing.

[/QUOTE]

That doesn't mean that the concept of the state has to last forever. If someone hadn't come up with the idea of the wheel, where would we be now?

That's through scientific exploration. Politics is a different ball park. We're smart enough not to have states, we just choose to have them for economic reasons.

Who is "we"? States are constructed by ruling classes.

The term is an abstraction, however, there is a heavy concentration of wealth and resource in countries that are seen as "Western." The people who control this wealth want to consolidate it and are not willing to share it out with others. We need to distribute the wealth worldwide so people from other countries don't feel the need to risk life and death in order to get here.

Conversely there are also "Western" countries that aren't wealthy (in the conventional, target-driven sense of the word). Portugal springs to mind. Then there are those countries whose resources and markets are dominated by forces outside their borders; many sub-Saharan countries would fit into this bracket.

 

[N_igma]

That doesn't mean that the concept of the state has to last forever. If someone hadn't come up with the idea of the wheel, where would we be now?

I didn't say they would last forever. They probably won't. However, in a world driving by capital, accumulation of capital/resource/wealth, their existence is essential for this to be consolidated and kept.

Who is "we"? States are constructed by ruling classes.

I know, but people themselves are quite happy to live in them for the reasons mentioned above.

Conversely there are also "Western" countries that aren't wealthy (in the conventional, target-driven sense of the word). Portugal springs to mind. Then there are those countries whose resources and markets are dominated by forces outside their borders; many sub-Saharan countries would fit into this bracket.

Yes but countries like Portugal and now Eastern European States are benfiting from the EU. I know Africa has something similar but it doesn't have nearly as much success as their markets are determined by wealthier nations, which shouldn't be the case. If we help let Africa sustain itself then thousands upon thousands wouldn't feel the need to hop on a boat of the West coast of the continent for the trip to Europe.

 

[lostexpectation]

Immigration is push and pull affair .. there are many situation historically and ion othger countries where masses have been pushed to other countries .. e.g. the irish famine, but currently immigration is essentially in the UK a PULL issue.

If companies were not looking to cut costs/wages there would be no work. And people outside of the uk are only to aware that this is a country where anything goes, after 25 years of neo liberalism, that is is worth emnigrating too, where it is possible to get work EVEN with millions out if work.

There is an obsession from jim page any swpies vp and all that immigration is somehow a voluntary or a 'push' act and unlike everthing else under capitalim somehow divorced from seperate from unconnected with capitalism.

If it were NOT for neo liberalism now there would NOT be immigration at anything like the scale it is now.

Why is this important? Because we are constantly told the alternative to open borders is barbed wire and machines guns. NO it is not. It is simple measures to make employers source not just produce locally but labour.

Yes yes yes this is a bit 'transitional demand' but in the here and now it will help rebuild communities and the IDEA that we can have some control over our destinies which the left seem to have given up hope of changing

as I said before who exactly are you talking too?

you seem to be having an arguement with yourself,

please tell who it is on this board that disagree with the existance of push/pull model of immigration?

 

[nino_savatte]

I didn't say they would last forever. They probably won't. However, in a world driving by capital, accumulation of capital/resource/wealth, their existence is essential for this to be consolidated and kept.



I know, but people themselves are quite happy to live in them for the reasons mentioned above.



Yes but countries like Portugal and now Eastern European States are benfiting from the EU. I know Africa has something similar but it doesn't have nearly as much success as their markets are determined by wealthier nations, which shouldn't be the case. If we help let Africa sustain itself then thousands upon thousands wouldn't feel the need to hop on a boat of the West coast of the continent for the trip to Europe.

Hmmm

I know, but people themselves are quite happy to live in them for the reasons mentioned above.

Are they? Or are you speaking for yourself? I'm not happy to live in a state; a state which makes every effort to colonise not only my body, but my mind and soul as well.

However, in a world driving by capital, accumulation of capital/resource/wealth, their existence is essential for this to be consolidated and kept.

And who accumulates this wealth? You? Me? Or a very small section of the population? I can't remember the exact figure but around 90% of the country's wealth is controlled by only 7% of the population. This is replicated in other states.

Yes but countries like Portugal and now Eastern European States are benfiting from the EU.

Aye, while the media in countries like Britain constantly carp on about how unfair it is that Portugal and the Eastern European countries receive massive EU subsidies. States operate for entirely selfish reasons; they offer little, if anything at all to their citizens. We are allowed to vote once every few years but the nature of the state never changes; it remains constant. Its only raison d'etre is to reproduce itself.

 

[audiotech]

The government has suggested that offering work will be a pull factor for migrants. There is no evidence to support this.
http://www.guardian.co.uk/commentisfree/story/0,,2049510,00.html

It seems that (along with the Labour Government) Urbans very own crazy gang are now all to the right of the tories on this issue?

 

[Knotted]

An example from history:

From the 1830s on, railroad and shipping companies actively promoted emigration from northern Europe, and, in many cases, the multiplying US consulates functioned in effect as labor-recruiting and land-selling agencies, eventually reaching all the way to remote Norway. Simultaneously, American entrepreneurs enticed newcomers from across Western Europe by way of private missions.

By the 1830s, the "exit revolution" had been achieved, thanks also in part to a population boom in Europe that eliminated government fears of a population shortage. From this perspective, the onset of a huge immigration wave in the 1830s is not attributable merely to "push factors," including such frequently cited conditions as European population growth and the "Irish potato famine." The failure of the potato crop also affected the Low Countries, northern France, and much of Germany and Scandinavia, all of which experienced demographic growth following the introduction of the potato a century earlier.

Aristide Zolberg on Rethinking the Last 200 years of US Immigration Policy

 

[durruti02]

So people don't at all feel a "push" from their own countries due to low wages, corruption, environmental degredation etc?

Are you talking about illegal immigrants, or about EU guestworkers? it's always hard to tell when you're having a rant.

What a load of pish. Don't attribute simplistic one-sided views to me that I don't hold, or I'll start treating your posts like I do those of tbaldwin; as a joke.

Rubbish.
Look at the scale of population transfers (forced and voluntary) over the last 300-400 years. Movement between states is as old as capitalism, the difference is that it's more noticable now.

"Barbed wire and machine guns"? Who tells you that?
It isn't an opinion I've seen expressed on Urban except as an aside by you and your fellow-travellers, when you haven't got a strong enough argument to get by without resorting to nonsense. It's not an opinion anyone rational would bother holding.

you always come on all noisy 'don't accuse me off blah blah blah ' and the the old cheshnut immigration is as old as cpaitalism and SO again you are saying IT IS NOT CONNECTED but seperate .. yes???

and immigration was brutal then .. as it often is now .. get real .. it is a brutal nasty tool of capitalism ..

p.s. barbed wire and guns come up from the 'no borders lobby' all the time .. open yer eyes ..

 

[durruti02]

Captain, I do think that are taking a rigid mechanistic and maybe unrealistic viewpoint on immigration here......how about people actually wanting to live in another culture or experience London/UK ?

Not all migrants are working 18 hour days in the fields of East Anglia and saving every penny for their impoverished families back home - some are actually living in London and enjoying the experienece of just being here.

Sorry captian, your standpoint smells of orthodox stalinist processs - there much more going on

1% of immigration mate .. thanks for introducing the classic fall back of the middle classes who like to dabble in emigration ( global aqnd the east london!) before settling in the home counties

 

[durruti02]

Anyone would think that he had some sort of obsession - non?

not with immigration .. but with the wiberals total misunderstanding of what is behind it ..

 

[durruti02]

as I said before who exactly are you talking too?

you seem to be having an arguement with yourself,

please tell who it is on this board that disagree with the existance of push/pull model of immigration?

on this very thread VP has again stated that 'immigration is as old as blah blah blah' .. yet again trying to distance the current low wage immigration from capitalism

also if you look at so many of the threads they are comcerned with how if it is to be stopped that it would have to be done physically .. with the assumption the major factor os PUSH .. i have always argued that the major factor is PULL .. and all immigration debate needs to focus on this ( and how this affects wages and society too )

 

[durruti02]

It seems that (along with the Labour Government) Urbans very own crazy gang are now all to the right of the tories on this issue?

you qoute a short opinion by a tory ( and tories run most firms that employ low wage labour) about refugees , which , who are not being discussed


and yet again a blind to accepting the basic premise .. that immigration is currently being organised to attack wages and unions .. and that the left are ignoring this

 

[Mrs Magpie]

I don't think immigration's based on 'pull'. I think it's based on 'push'. As someone who has brought up children, what matters is safety and stability....

 

[becky p]

Anyone would think that he had some sort of obsession - non?

Given that you appear to be saying that anybody who disagrees with your ideas on immigration controls is racist. I wonder how many people you think do disagree with you?

Has it ever occured to you that you may be the one obsessed. Not just with immigration but that the vast majority of people in this country are racist?

The BNP must love people like you.

 

[audiotech]

you qoute a short opinion by a tory ( and tories run most firms that employ low wage labour) about refugees , which , who are not being discussed


and yet again a blind to accepting the basic premise .. that immigration is currently being organised to attack wages and unions .. and that the left are ignoring this

Apparently, this particular tory is: "interested in humanity and fairness" and sees that as an "inherent part of being a Conservative."

You obviously didn't read the article fully because the article does indeed discuss refugees and immigration. Also migrants as it happens.

The 'left' ignoring attacks on workers? Really?

 

[durruti02]

I don't think immigration's based on 'pull'. I think it's based on 'push'. As someone who has brought up children, what matters is safety and stability....

so you would emigrate to wherever IF there was NO work there??? refugees are PUSHED .. immigrants are not .. there come here cos they know there is work .. poland ain't that bad/unsafe/unstable!

 

[durruti02]

The 'left' ignoring attacks on workers? Really?

yes .. they are hamstrung .. immigration has had a major effect in cutting jobs and wages ( as well as weakenning our ability to respond )

.. and yet the left finds itself unable to comment as they wrongly think that to acknowledge that immigration ( ironically a tool of the rightwing ) is being used in thuis way is in some wat racist or reactionary ..

so yes the left are failing to take a lead in defending workers in these situations ..

of course i exaggerate .. the SP are coming away from this daft position, and the anti EU left moved away some time ago ..

 

[ViolentPanda]

you always come on all noisy 'don't accuse me off blah blah blah ' and the the old cheshnut immigration is as old as cpaitalism and SO again you are saying IT IS NOT CONNECTED but seperate .. yes???

and immigration was brutal then .. as it often is now .. get real .. it is a brutal nasty tool of capitalism ..

p.s. barbed wire and guns come up from the 'no borders lobby' all the time .. open yer eyes ..

So you can't actually answer anything substantive then, just a load of old blah blah blah?

You great fucking plum.

 

[durruti02]

So you can't actually answer anything substantive then, just a load of old blah blah blah?

You great fucking plum.

sorry .. this post is nonsensical ..

you said i had accused you falsely .. i showed i had not .. end of ..

 

[ViolentPanda]

on this very thread VP has again stated that 'immigration is as old as blah blah blah' .. yet again trying to distance the current low wage immigration from capitalism

Actually, I was putting the subject in historical context.

The problem for you is that context tends to make your "arguments" look like shit, doesn't it?

 

[Mrs Magpie]

there come here cos they know there is work .. poland ain't that bad/unsafe/unstable!

How many Poles do you actually converse with daily? It's about bread on table.

 

[Mrs Magpie]

The problem for you is that context tends to make your "arguments" look like shit, doesn't it?

innit... I won't even start on the spelling which doesn't help.

 

[durruti02]

How many Poles do you actually converse with daily? It's about bread on table.

you just said it was about safety stability ???

p.s. poles arn't starving ..

p.s. chat to some regularly ..

 

[ViolentPanda]

sorry .. this post is nonsensical ..

you said i had accused you falsely .. i showed i had not .. end of ..

Actually, I said "Don't attribute simplistic one-sided views to me that I don't hold".

Not quite in the same league as what you're claiming about "false accusations", is it? And, despite your denial, its a fair description of exactly what you did.

Deny it all you like. Anyone who's interested in seeing who is right or wrong can read the thread through and decide for themselves, can't they?

 

[durruti02]

Actually, I was putting the subject in historical context.

The problem for you is that context tends to make your "arguments" look like shit, doesn't it?

sorry??

historical context is useful but not strictly relevent .. yes most refugees are pushed .. yes potato blight was a push .. agreed .. now deal with now .. can we do that?

 

[durruti02]

Actually, I said "Don't attribute simplistic one-sided views to me that I don't hold".

Not quite in the same league as what you're claiming about "false accusations", is it? And, despite your denial, its a fair description of exactly what you did.

Deny it all you like. Anyone who's interested in seeing who is right or wrong can read the thread through and decide for themselves, can't they?

vp .. did you say immigration is as old as capitalism ( implying it is older ) and have you not said before it predates it??

 

[Mrs Magpie]

you just said it was about safety stability ???

p.s. poles arn't starving ..

p.s. chat to some regularly ..

The situation in Poland (I'm married to someone whose father was a Polish refugee) particularly in cities, is not great. Stability is about being able to pay rent, clothe and feed your children, and not about worrying about how you can manage to do that.

 

[durruti02]

The situation in Poland (I'm married to someone whose father was a Polish refugee) particularly in cities, is not great. Stability is about being able to pay rent, clothe and feed your children, and not about worrying about how you can manage to do that.

but would they come here if there was no work?

 

[audiotech]

Given that you appear to be saying that anybody who disagrees with your ideas on immigration controls is racist. I wonder how many people you think do disagree with you?

Has it ever occured to you that you may be the one obsessed. Not just with immigration but that the vast majority of people in this country are racist?

The BNP must love people like you.

Becky, I see you're back.

I'm still waiting for an answer to my questions on t'other thread?

These are:

If you are active in your community (are you?), then what arguments do you use on the issue of immigration?

 

[ViolentPanda]

vp .. did you say immigration is as old as capitalism ( implying it is older )

Saying that something "is as old as" means exactly that, it means equivalence, it doesn't imply that one is older than the other unless your understanding of English is entirely at odds with just about everyone else who understands English.

and have you not said before it predates it??

No, I've said that migration is older than capitalism, that's:
migration n. a change of habitation from one area to another,
not
immigration n removal into a country with the intention of settling in it.

 

[ViolentPanda]

but would they come here if there was no work?

Historically people have. Why should the present be any different?