Why do the left believe the govt on immigration but nothing else?

[Spion]

Spot on. As belboid says, the Urban durrutti is obsessed with immigration-related issues. As is baldwin. They are even more obsessed with demonising anyone who dissents from their worldview as evil 'liberal supramacists' and the like ...

it baffles me who would ever be bothered by these clowns calling anyone a liberal as an insult. The way they chuck the word around is content-free and only serves to make them look a bit daft, like they think they're a bit tough or something

 

[poster342002]

The way they chuck the word around is content-free and only serves to make them look a bit daft, like they think they're a bit tough or something

What, you mean like the way certain sections of the left bandy around the word "racist"?

 

[tbaldwin]

Thinks... yep, there's only one St*rmfr*nt poster who could spell "Durutti".

Step forward, Patrick Harrington!

What a clown......Durutti is Patrick Harrington is he......Yeah!

 

[tbaldwin]

it baffles me who would ever be bothered by these clowns calling anyone a liberal as an insult. The way they chuck the word around is content-free and only serves to make them look a bit daft, like they think they're a bit tough or something

I dont think Liberal is an insult.Liberal Supremacist though is. It refers to people who think of themselves as very educated nice and tolerant who beneath the packaging show themselves to be reactionary twats who are content to write off most of the population as uneducated tabloid readers etc etc.....

 

[William of Walworth]

it baffles me who would ever be bothered by these clowns calling anyone a liberal as an insult. The way they chuck the word around is content-free and only serves to make them look a bit daft, like they think they're a bit tough or something

You are right of course, but I have a bit of a history on here of having my politics lied about by kneejerk-haters of people they (the haters) unilaterally designate as 'liberals'.

And I'm a leftie Trade Unionist.

 

[nino_savatte]

I dont think Liberal is an insult.Liberal Supremacist though is. It refers to people who think of themselves as very educated nice and tolerant who beneath the packaging show themselves to be reactionary twats who are content to write off most of the population as uneducated tabloid readers etc etc.....

Wtf is a "liberal supremacist"? That sounds like ideologically loaded claptrap to me. It belongs in the same dustbin as Coulter's nuggets and the notion that Nazis were "socialists".

 

[nino_savatte]

I think that a lot of liberal lefties think the govt are too harsh when it comes to immigration.............
Its essentially an arguement between Liberals with Power and responsibility and those with neither....

You come across in the same way as many US right wingers. Are you sure you're not one of them?

You are Douglas Feith and I claim my £5.

 

[tbaldwin]

Wtf is a "liberal supremacist"? That sounds like ideologically loaded claptrap to me. It belongs in the same dustbin as Coulter's nuggets and the notion that Nazis were "socialists".

The way i use the term is to describe people who are basically lying to themselves and others who back reactionary politics and write off the majority of the population.....

On Crime and Immigration they have no understanding of how different classes are effected.

On Education they back reactionary calls for more money to go into higher education....

 

[Spion]

What, you mean like the way certain sections of the left bandy around the word "racist"?

The use of any word in an inappropriate way is, errrr, inappropriate. Why does 'racist' stand out for you?

 

[tbaldwin]

You are right of course, but I have a bit of a history on here of having my politics lied about by kneejerk-haters of people they (the haters) unilaterally designate as 'liberals'.

And I'm a leftie Trade Unionist.

William i dont think ive lied about your politics? You might not like how i interpret your politics and yes i do see your politics as essentially liberal.

 

[revol68]

in many ways "liberals" are more disgusting than conservatives, because it is liberals who act as the vanguard of capital, whilst conservatives merely try to shore up decaying discourses, the liberal is out there domesticating discourses and projecting the myth of democracy.

liberals are generally smug cunts who like to position themselves as the "rational moderate choice" and imagine the correct approach is some sort of medium between two poles.

 

[Spion]

in many ways "liberals" are more disgusting than conservatives, because it is liberals who act as the vanguard of capital, whilst conservatives merely try to shore up decaying discourses, the liberal is out there domesticating discourses and projecting the myth of democracy.

liberals are generally smug cunts who like to position themselves as the "rational moderate choice" and imagine the correct approach is some sort of medium between two poles.

there's no definition in your post, unless we are to understand liberal as meaning:

1. more disgusting than conservatives 2. acting as the vanguard of capital 3. domesticating discourses and projecting the myth of democracy 4. smug cunts 5. imagine the correct approach is some sort of medium between two poles

so, you're not a liberal, I take it? how do you define not liberal and what's your word for it?

 

[fishfingerer]

in many ways "liberals" are more disgusting than conservatives, because it is liberals who act as the vanguard of capital, whilst conservatives merely try to shore up decaying discourses, the liberal is out there domesticating discourses and projecting the myth of democracy.

liberals are generally smug cunts who like to position themselves as the "rational moderate choice" and imagine the correct approach is some sort of medium between two poles.

There were a few excellent definitions of liberals along these lines in a thread somewhere on the boards a while back but I can't find it now. 'what do you hate most about liberals' or something.

 

[Pigeon]

So durruti02, do you agree with the Murdoch press on other issues as well, or is it just immigration? (You seem to be quite obsessed with opposing immigrants).

Immigration may well be good for capitalism. So, obviously, are divisions amongst the working class. Opposition to immigrants is obviously really good for capitalism (that's why the Murdoch press and the Daily Mail stoke it up all the time).

In the inter war years in the US immigration was used by the bosses to drive down wages. Some Trade unionists responded by opposing immigrant labour. The resultant divisions assisted the boss class in fucking over the workers. Good for capitalism x100. Fortunately organizations such as the Knights of Labour and the Wobblies organised to unite immigrant and pre-settled labour. The US workers learned some valuable lessons from the Polish workers - the factory occupation! Wages and conditions were, for a time, driven upwards for all.

Whose side are you on durruti?!

Well, precisely. The irony of it all is that the immigration controls called for by these people DO NOT STOP IMMIGRATION; instead, they criminalise immigrants, giving them no option other than to work in the illegal economy, driving down wages and conditions.

And who benefits from that?

 

[revol68]

there's no definition in your post, unless we are to understand liberal as meaning:

1. more disgusting than conservatives 2. acting as the vanguard of capital 3. domesticating discourses and projecting the myth of democracy 4. smug cunts 5. imagine the correct approach is some sort of medium between two poles

so, you're not a liberal, I take it? how do you define not liberal and what's your word for it?

a liberal to me is someone who essentially believes that "capitalism" is either fine, inevitable or the best we can have, and hence limits their analysis and problem solving to within such a framework.

They tend to whine on about "totalitarianism", "violence" and "terror" whilst blind to the totalitarianism of capital, and the violence and terror that gaqve birth to and maintains it. Or they are aware of it but imagine you can have a capitalism not based on this fundamental violence.

 

[Spion]

a liberal to me is someone who essentially believes that "capitalism" is either fine, inevitable or the best we can have, and hence limits their analysis and problem solving to within such a framework.

They tend to whine on about "totalitarianism", "violence" and "terror" whilst blind to the totalitarianism of capital, and the violence and terror that gaqve birth to and maintains it. Or they are aware of it but imagine you can have a capitalism not based on this fundamental violence.

that's sort of fine. but, are not conservatives or fascists also liberals by this definition tho??

 

[Hawkeye Pearce]

Disingenuous bollocks. In the past few weeks, Reid's mouthed off about deporting Zimbabweans, setting migration limits and setting up uniformed forces to patrol the borders: the Government he's a part of have also made it increasingly difficult for asylum seekers to get legal representation at appeal, prompted by the unfortunate fact that a significant number of refused cases were winning at appeal, and being judged to be genuinely at risk of persecution.Those examples are off of the top of my head. It's a consistent, negative message.

Actually its what blair says when he's challenged on it first he'll state the economic case for immigration, then he'll go on about how the state needs new powers to achieve "controlled immigration". The point is that its a double game they are playing here. Mouthing off about the need for "tough" new laws to get a good headline in the Mail/Sun and at the same time turning a blind eye to the underground economy of workers who keep so many companies profits high as they can be paid very little and got rid of very easily. Thats why I agree with the point that the point about unionisation. Unionise all these workers and it'll make it harder for the capitalists to exploit them and harder for the government to create such an easy scapegoat if employers were forced to pay everyone on the same rate whether they were migrants or existing working class communities.

 

[revol68]

well yes conservatives can be liberals, but fascists I don't think so. They atleast recognise the current system as base, nihilistic and destructive and have the intellectual nerve (not actually intellect, mind) to attempt to rupture the banal passive aggressive violence of capital.

In a way fascism is socialism that loses it's nerve, to use Heidegger's (ironically) terminology, is unathunetic to itself, that imagines that the class struggle can be frozen and superseded, and which replaces the dream of internationalism with the grubby lil perversion of the national community.

 

[nino_savatte]

The way i use the term is to describe people who are basically lying to themselves and others who back reactionary politics and write off the majority of the population.....

On Crime and Immigration they have no understanding of how different classes are effected.

On Education they back reactionary calls for more money to go into higher education....

Fuck me, you don't half like the sound of your own rhetoric. You're also rather fond of catchy phrases like "liberal supremacist". That reveals more about you than you would care to admit.

This thread is simply another opportunity to present yourself as the 'sensible voice of the left' when, in fact, you're as right wing as any member of the Tory party.

 

[Pigeon]

...replaces the dream of internationalism with the grubby lil perversion of the national community.

 

[Pigeon]

... turning a blind eye to the underground economy of workers who keep so many companies profits high as they can be paid very little and got rid of very easily....

Well, quite: but I'd say that more than "turning a blind eye" to the situation, present Government policy actively encourages it.

Why else would the Home Office keep refusing, say, Somali asylum claims outright, forcing thousands of people into destitution while knowing that there's no state apparatus in Somalia to issue the travel documents, passports etc necessary for return?

 

[Groucho]

Presumably Revol68 considers him/herself some kind of 'revolutionary'.

A 'revolutionary' who begins by insulting everyone who doesn't accept the need for revolution is desirous of a political life confined to the wilderness.

Revolutionaries have to work with 'liberals' and 'reformists' (as well as other ideas that Marxists might regard as 'backward') who make up the majority of the working class. You can't do that if you start by insulting them. Most people currently accept that we have to live with capitalism. We'd be in the process of revolution else!

e.g. I oppose all immigration controls. By their nature I consider such controls to be racist. I do not believe however, that everyone (the majority) who accepts the need for some form of immigration controls to be racist.

 

[Groucho]

Fuck me, you don't half like the sound of your own rhetoric. You're also rather fond of catchy phrases like "liberal supremacist". That reveals more about you than you would care to admit.

This thread is simply another opportunity to present yourself as the 'sensible voice of the left' when, in fact, you're as right wing as any member of the Tory party.

tbaldwin and duranti06 are a pair of right-wing trolls.

 

[mk12]

By their nature I consider such controls to be racist

There was a big fuss about Polish workers coming here - Polish people are white.

tbaldwin and duranti06 are a pair of right-wing trolls.

that's ridiculous, if you knew their previous/current political activty. And Marx was obviously a right-winger if they are.

 

[Donna Ferentes]

There was a big fuss about Polish workers coming here - Polish people are white.

Oh, Gawd, Matt, is that the best you can do?

 

[mk12]

Are Polish people a different race to white people then?

 

[Donna Ferentes]

Being obtuse is not a useful employment of one's intelligence, Matt.

 

[mk12]

Take 2 - Are Polish people a different race to white people then?

 

[belboid]

thats right Matt, and the Irish never suffered from racism either did they?

 

[Donna Ferentes]

Matt, I have no intention of allowing you to pretend that you don't know what this is about. Or that you think "white" is a "race".

You are a silly little boy.