Why do the left believe the govt on immigration but nothing else?
- Thread starter durruti02
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Hawkeye Pearce
We're your friends man...
Well the only people who really gain from most things will be those that own this coutnry. They gain from cheap labour. As for all the fatuous shite about "immigration bennefitting the economy" what that actually translates into is the same as when they say the economy grew by 2.9493% last quarter, thats the bosses. I think the liberal left pump out the economic argument simply to try and beat the right wing arguments which in many cases are little more than "keep britain" white powellite stuff.
Yep - the capitalists certainly benefit from it economically, whereas workers do not it appears.
durruti: im sure i clicked on one of your links the other day and it said how most immigrants coming to this country were educated/well off in their native countries. Is that true? Is there any evidence to support this?
On Newsnight tonight, even the blessed Polly has come out against untramelled immigration: she actually argued it hits the poorest hardest and keeps wages of those on low income artificially low, while the rich benefit from cheap labour , cleaners and waiters ,etc..
btw, Durutti, a very good point, the far left in bed with the neo-liberals, well I never,
btw, Durutti, a very good point, the far left in bed with the neo-liberals, well I never,
Hawkeye Pearce
We're your friends man...
A Question.......
It seems that some of us agree that immigration is mainly another scam run by the ruling class at the expense of both those who come over here and are forced into sometimes dangerous and horrendously underpaid work and the working class as well. So my question is what is the best way to approach this issue from a standpoint that opposes capitalism? As it is clear that the so called far left are largely failing to do this in any remotely satisfactory way?
It seems that some of us agree that immigration is mainly another scam run by the ruling class at the expense of both those who come over here and are forced into sometimes dangerous and horrendously underpaid work and the working class as well. So my question is what is the best way to approach this issue from a standpoint that opposes capitalism? As it is clear that the so called far left are largely failing to do this in any remotely satisfactory way?
As far as I can see, there are two possible options.Hawkeye Pearce said:
- Lobby for stronger border controls, more restrictions on the activities and movements of non-UK citizens, a crackdown on immigrants working illegally, etc. or;
- Campaign for immigrants to be given the right to work properly, with equal pay and full rights, thereby cutting off the supply of cheap, near-slave labour and removing any incentive for businesses to hire immigrants in preference to UK citizens.
IMO, the former is untenable, as it attacks only the symptoms of the problem, rather than the cause.
Hawkeye Pearce
We're your friends man...
Anything that increases the power of the state is a definite non starter. Ironically though if option two was in any way successful the ruling class would stick up the barriers quicker than you can blink.
A unionisation drive amongst migrants would be the best way to build solidarity amongst the migrant populations and the existing working class communities. A difficult task but far better to try that than allow so called lefties to get away with the narrow sloganeering that has become so wearisomely familiar over recent years.
A unionisation drive amongst migrants would be the best way to build solidarity amongst the migrant populations and the existing working class communities. A difficult task but far better to try that than allow so called lefties to get away with the narrow sloganeering that has become so wearisomely familiar over recent years.
Broadly speaking, provisionally, not having seen any serious evidence to challenge the figures, I believe "the government" in the UK on:
These would seem to be the same kind of thing as the figures thrown around in the immigration "debate": dodgy dossiers are not.
- The census
- Economic activity indicators - GDP, activity by industry sector
- Votes cast at elections
- Mortality and morbidity statistics
- Taxation receipts
These would seem to be the same kind of thing as the figures thrown around in the immigration "debate": dodgy dossiers are not.
lostexpectation
New Member
treelover said:
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treelover said:
Well, well, well, it's interesting to see Toynbee being referred to as "the blessed Polly" as it is usual to see her described as that wet, liberal, Guardian columnist, or worse.
Toynbee, the liberal that she is, was arguing for a fairer Britain and not as you claim that she'd "come out against untramelled immigration".
What was pointed out on the programme was that a number of the more unscrupulous employers could exploit workers from eastern Europe and thus drive down wages in certain sectors of the economy.
To make that unlikely then more effective employment laws need to be in place and the minimum wage should be increased.
As one of the other people on the programme pointed out, the UK is carrying out what it signed up to in 1974 - the free movement of labour between European borders.
Barry Kade
barrykade.wordpress
For someone calling themselve Durutti you have shit politics. Can you choose another name, as I am a big fan of the original - Buenaventura.
(By the way...the answer is unionise all workers, immigrant or settled and shoot any boss paying below minimum wage - Doh!).
(By the way...the answer is unionise all workers, immigrant or settled and shoot any boss paying below minimum wage - Doh!).
dylanredefined
Not a house elf a tiger
What I don't understand is with a population of 60 million or so.How come we
have a shortage of workers from bus drivers,nurses etc. What is everyone else doing?Do we have a vast majority sitting around doing nothing or what?
have a shortage of workers from bus drivers,nurses etc. What is everyone else doing?Do we have a vast majority sitting around doing nothing or what?
Spion
I hear ya
Barry Kade said:For someone calling themselve Durutti you have shit politics. Can you choose another name, as I am a big fan of the original - Buenaventura.
(By the way...the answer is unionise all workers, immigrant or settled and shoot any boss paying below minimum wage - Doh!).
At last - a working class answer to the question.
Shows Durutti's 'union action to stop immigration' for the ill-thought out/agent provocateur crap it is
Satire, my dear MC5
the thing is belboid, is that immigration is perhaps after the new imp wars, the most significant and possible epoch changing phemoneomen facing us in the west and indeed around the world, imo, it merits massive balanced discusssion.
i dont believe the left should be arrogant enough to think it can lead the debate, but it should be raising its voice and calling for equitable solutions.
@Belboid Fuck me you're obsessed aintcha?? Stop trying to pretend your not.
the thing is belboid, is that immigration is perhaps after the new imp wars, the most significant and possible epoch changing phemoneomen facing us in the west and indeed around the world, imo, it merits massive balanced discusssion.
i dont believe the left should be arrogant enough to think it can lead the debate, but it should be raising its voice and calling for equitable solutions.
@Belboid Fuck me you're obsessed aintcha?? Stop trying to pretend your not.
Just for the record, can anyone actually quote any current government representatives as actually saying that "there is very little immigration and it's good for the working class"?
Cos as far as I recall, this Government's actually spent a good proportion of the past 9 years trying to pose as "tough on immigration". In fact, Reid was all over the telly just the other day mouthing off about introducing yet more immigration controls.
So where exactly does this particular straw man come from?
Cos as far as I recall, this Government's actually spent a good proportion of the past 9 years trying to pose as "tough on immigration". In fact, Reid was all over the telly just the other day mouthing off about introducing yet more immigration controls.
So where exactly does this particular straw man come from?
Hawkeye Pearce
We're your friends man...
Depends entirely on what day it is and which audience their appealing to. One day Reid will be going round spouting screeds about "getting tough". The next day he'll be stating the "positive effects that immigration has on the economy". Depends which newspaper he's aiming at, today its the Sun/Mail/Sexpress.
The left have been known on occasions to use the "economic" argument as well.
The left have been known on occasions to use the "economic" argument as well.
bluestreak
HomosexualityIsStalin’sAtomBombtoDestroyAmerica
Pigeon said:
it's an attempt to prove to the left on this site that immigration is bad and wrong just the same as every other liberal-capitalist policy.
except that it's bollocks, because the problems with immigration are created by the liberal-capitalists, not by the act of immigration.
personally i wouldn't believe the labour party if they told me the sun was going to rise in the morning, but that doesn't mean i'm going to become a rabid racist just because they change their mind on immigration. it has it's good and bad points, just like most other parts of modern life.
Hawkeye Pearce said:
Disingenuous bollocks. In the past few weeks, Reid's mouthed off about deporting Zimbabweans, setting migration limits and setting up uniformed forces to patrol the borders: the Government he's a part of have also made it increasingly difficult for asylum seekers to get legal representation at appeal, prompted by the unfortunate fact that a significant number of refused cases were winning at appeal, and being judged to be genuinely at risk of persecution.Those examples are off of the top of my head. It's a consistent, negative message.
bluestreak said:
<waits for bluestreak to be sneered at as an evil liberal, simply because he doesn't subscribe unquestioningly to durrutti's obsessive mindset .... >
BTW, some posters on these forums could do better to remember what 'liberal-capitalist' actually means, and the difference between a 'liberal' (capitalist) in economics, and a general liberal in terms of civil liberties, social policy, etc. Instead of lazily lying about and sneering at anyone and everyone who disagrees with them, even full on, not very liberal at all lefties, as 'liberals'
This constant and disgraceful abuse of the word 'liberal' on Urban puts me right off ever participating properly in debates like this to be honest. Other so called 'lefties' treating 'liberals' (of which I am not, incidentally) with near identical contempt to the way American neocons assume anyone not ultra conservative is a 'liberal' (ie to them, a communist) and demonising them accordingly ...
Barry Kade said:
Spot on. As belboid says, the Urban durrutti is obsessed with immigration-related issues. As is baldwin. They are even more obsessed with demonising anyone who dissents from their worldview as evil 'liberal supramacists' and the like ...
(By the way...the answer is unionise all workers, immigrant or settled and shoot any boss paying below minimum wage - Doh!).
Even more spot on
Impossible to vote for any of them!
Utterly shit poll options btw durrutti -- betraying yoiur assumptionist mindset.
Utterly shit poll options btw durrutti -- betraying yoiur assumptionist mindset.
unity is strength
So durruti02, do you agree with the Murdoch press on other issues as well, or is it just immigration? (You seem to be quite obsessed with opposing immigrants).
Immigration may well be good for capitalism. So, obviously, are divisions amongst the working class. Opposition to immigrants is obviously really good for capitalism (that's why the Murdoch press and the Daily Mail stoke it up all the time).
In the inter war years in the US immigration was used by the bosses to drive down wages. Some Trade unionists responded by opposing immigrant labour. The resultant divisions assisted the boss class in fucking over the workers. Good for capitalism x100. Fortunately organizations such as the Knights of Labour and the Wobblies organised to unite immigrant and pre-settled labour. The US workers learned some valuable lessons from the Polish workers - the factory occupation! Wages and conditions were, for a time, driven upwards for all.
Whose side are you on durruti?!
So durruti02, do you agree with the Murdoch press on other issues as well, or is it just immigration? (You seem to be quite obsessed with opposing immigrants).
Immigration may well be good for capitalism. So, obviously, are divisions amongst the working class. Opposition to immigrants is obviously really good for capitalism (that's why the Murdoch press and the Daily Mail stoke it up all the time).
In the inter war years in the US immigration was used by the bosses to drive down wages. Some Trade unionists responded by opposing immigrant labour. The resultant divisions assisted the boss class in fucking over the workers. Good for capitalism x100. Fortunately organizations such as the Knights of Labour and the Wobblies organised to unite immigrant and pre-settled labour. The US workers learned some valuable lessons from the Polish workers - the factory occupation! Wages and conditions were, for a time, driven upwards for all.
Whose side are you on durruti?!
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