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Urban v's the Commentariat

No 'Hot Centrist Takes' thread yet, so I'll shove this here. Hannah Al-Othman is a Buzzfeed hack who sees a commitment to social justice and a commitment to social injustice and thinks 'wow, snap!'
I think I've said this before in response to a different idiot making the same comparison, but it's amazing how these people have just wiped 2017 from their brains. Obviously the Corbyn project was not all glorious electoral success all the time, but equally, I'll be very surprised if Truss' first election as leader sees her improving her party's vote share by almost 10% and picking up 30 new seats.
I think it’s supposed to frame it as a bunch of plucky Americans anarchists up against the Main Stream Media…
Is Americans an autocorrect insertion there, or do you think u75 posters genuinely do try to frame themselves as plucky Americans? :confused:
 
Probably the thread for this, just seen that Novara have a video up where Bastani interviews Peter Hitchens:
Being charitable, I suppose you could say that interviewing Peter Hitchens is perhaps the sort of thing that becomes inevitable if you want to do a media project that breaks out of the lefty bubble, connects to the mainstream or whatever; but whatever, there is absolutely nothing that would persuade me to watch the Hitchens/Bastani interview.
 
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Probably the thread for this, just seen that Novara have a video up where Bastani interviews Peter Hitchens:
Being charitable, I suppose you could say that interviewing Peter Hitchens is perhaps the sort of thing that becomes inevitable if you want to do a media project that breaks out of the lefty bubble, connects to the mainstream or whatever; but whatever, there is absolutely nothing that would persuade me to watch the Hitchens/Bastani interview.

Hitchens is at least someone who comes at things from the point of view of actually held principles and is able to express some form of reasoning behind them. I mean I also think he's a horrible person but it's still a level up from a lot of current right wing commentary which largely seems to come from the point of view of being a cunt for the sake of it tbh - 'haha I'll advocate gas chambers as that'll show those woke snowflakes' sort of shit.
 
Probably the thread for this, just seen that Novara have a video up where Bastani interviews Peter Hitchens:
Being charitable, I suppose you could say that interviewing Peter Hitchens is perhaps the sort of thing that becomes inevitable if you want to do a media project that breaks out of the lefty bubble, connects to the mainstream or whatever; but whatever, there is absolutely nothing that would persuade me to watch the Hitchens/Bastani interview.
He's a rather predictable choice for that though, and a passe idea of what 'the mainstream' is. For a bunch who seemed quite social media savvy when they started out, I find they don't really engage much with the political trends from youtube and tiktok, which are more or less forming a generation (and mostly badly). Peter Hitchens mostly talks to other retirement-age people who have no intention of changing their minds on anything, so who does he bridge over to? Other media types in the declining media formats perhaps.
 
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He's a rather predictable choice for that though, and a passe idea of what 'the mainstream' is. For a bunch who seemed quite social media savvy when they started out, I find they don't really engage much with the political trends from youtube and tiktok, which are more or less forming a generation (and mostly badly). Peter Hitchens mostly talks to other retirement-age people who have no intention of changing their minds on anything, so who does he bridge over to? Other media types in the declining media formats perhaps.

I suspect that he's the type of person to interview that makes Novara feel that they're serious media types rather than it having any external impact.
 
don't really engage much with the political trends from youtube and tiktok, which are more or less forming a generation (and mostly badly).
as already asked, what kind of thing have you in mind?
bastani did interview some famous american left youtuber btw, cant remember the guys name, it wasnt that interesting, the bit i remember most was aaron repeatedly asking him How much does he press? (gym talk) which was very cringey

im going to find it...this is where they do interviews so you can see who else theyve talked to

found it
hasan piker "—arguably the most influential political voice on livestreaming service Twitch. "
 
Hitchens is at least someone who comes at things from the point of view of actually held principles and is able to express some form of reasoning behind them. I mean I also think he's a horrible person but it's still a level up from a lot of current right wing commentary which largely seems to come from the point of view of being a cunt for the sake of it tbh - 'haha I'll advocate gas chambers as that'll show those woke snowflakes' sort of shit.
Yeah, I can see that. Still have no desire to watch it though.
 
are you referring to Andrew Tate and alt-right stuff or other, lefty stuff too? if so, please expand
Both, sort of. E.g. versions of identity politics have been evolving on social media for years now. The battle over trans rights has significant social media presence on boths sides. But in terms of who is really important? The far right is winning on social media. There's little doubt it is one of the most important political phenomena of our times. The bridging figures to the far right, like Rogan and Petersen, are very interesting in the sense that they are kicking the left's arse among a certain section of young people. I agree they might be difficult to interview, I just think Novara should probably give up this idea it is mainly in a battle with establishment media and take on the battle where it's really happening.
 
as already asked, what kind of thing have you in mind?
bastani did interview some famous american left youtuber btw, cant remember the guys name, it wasnt that interesting, the bit i remember most was aaron repeatedly asking him How much does he press? (gym talk) which was very cringey

im going to find it...this is where they do interviews so you can see who else theyve talked to

found it
hasan piker "—arguably the most influential political voice on livestreaming service Twitch. "
Yeah, I'm glad HP is in the games space doing his thing, but he's not one of the more interesting people. Also I think NM people could be going onto youtuber's channels if they want to pick up new audience. Anyway, don't just want to just moan at NM, they do certain things well, and maybe we just need a bigger left media ecosystem. But I do think they used to be on top of social media when they started but are still stuck in 2011 where twitter and facebook were what mattered.
 
Thing is, if ID politics is the battleground then the right will always win, because ID politics suits right wing politics very well. It makes extant fractures among the left even worse because it encourages every small group to focus on their own specific needs and desires, whereas the right don't need unity because their whole narrative hinges on division.
 
bastani did interview some famous american left youtuber btw, cant remember the guys name, it wasnt that interesting, the bit i remember most was aaron repeatedly asking him How much does he press? (gym talk) which was very cringey
At least they covered the important stuff. :thumbs: How much Huel does he have in a day? I think we need to know.
 
I follow hitchens on the twitterbox because he's mad a a box of frogs and weirdly principled with it- his principles range from stupid to evil but he does hold them. However I had to mute him recently for god bothering and 'debating' with Sargon of cunt. I will not be watching the novara interview either.
 
Also worth considering whether the whole youtuber format or whatever is more suited to individualistic politics and a tough fit for more collective ones, how do you convey the power of collective solidarity if your essential format is someone sat alone in their bedroom chatting at a screen?
But that terrain can't be abandoned or we're all fucked I think. So it's about pushing at the limits of what social media can do, using it for things it wasn't designed for (think how powerful fb groups were for a while before fb de-fanged them). Why don't we have left comedians livestreaming from protests rather than just doing talky podcasts? And if you turn up to a protest you know they're going to, you can probably get in on it for a few seconds. I dunno, not saying my ideas are the best, but we need to get imaginative. Kwajo is quite interesting - I've tried to talk about disrepair in social housing before and it's hard to make it interesting. He manages it. There are problems with a celebrity activist model of course, but maybe some of them can be fixed with enough education, we just need to be trying out all sorts of shit to see what works. We've got off the topic, but this is why I think Peter Hitchens is not where it's at, I think NM are a bit too entranced with legacy media and their beef with it.
 
I follow hitchens on the twitterbox because he's mad a a box of frogs and weirdly principled with it- his principles range from stupid to evil but he does hold them. However I had to mute him recently for god bothering and 'debating' with Sargon of cunt. I will not be watching the novara interview either.

The only medium in which it's reasonable to engage with Peter Hitchens is via a bazooka
 
But that terrain can't be abandoned or we're all fucked I think. So it's about pushing at the limits of what social media can do, using it for things it wasn't designed for (think how powerful fb groups were for a while before fb de-fanged them). Why don't we have left comedians livestreaming from protests rather than just doing talky podcasts? And if you turn up to a protest you know they're going to, you can probably get in on it for a few seconds. I dunno, not saying my ideas are the best, but we need to get imaginative. Kwajo is quite interesting - I've tried to talk about disrepair in social housing before and it's hard to make it interesting. He manages it. There are problems with a celebrity activist model of course, but maybe some of them can be fixed with enough education, we just need to be trying out all sorts of shit to see what works. We've got off the topic, but this is why I think Peter Hitchens is not where it's at, I think NM are a bit too entranced with legacy media and their beef with it.
I dunno, I could be wrong about all this, and definitely not having a go at anyone trying to engage on there, but I tend more towards thinking that terrain must be abandoned/destroyed or we're all fucked. Which is definitely not me being an absolute pessimist - the cycle of what the "in" platform is changes so fast, I'm old enough that I can remember when having some kind of presence on MySpace seemed important, so it feels very plausible to me that the way things are set up now is not going to last very long.
And I have some good memories of fb groups being good, but also a fair amount of memories of them being absolutely toxic tbf.
 
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But that terrain can't be abandoned or we're all fucked I think. So it's about pushing at the limits of what social media can do, using it for things it wasn't designed for (think how powerful fb groups were for a while before fb de-fanged them). Why don't we have left comedians livestreaming from protests rather than just doing talky podcasts? And if you turn up to a protest you know they're going to, you can probably get in on it for a few seconds. I dunno, not saying my ideas are the best, but we need to get imaginative. Kwajo is quite interesting - I've tried to talk about disrepair in social housing before and it's hard to make it interesting. He manages it. There are problems with a celebrity activist model of course, but maybe some of them can be fixed with enough education, we just need to be trying out all sorts of shit to see what works. We've got off the topic, but this is why I think Peter Hitchens is not where it's at, I think NM are a bit too entranced with legacy media and their beef with it.
my 'problem' with Novara is that its too UK headline based, and some pretty nonsense headline click bait stuff at that at times
it doesnt inspire any action or have little if any activist crossover
which is fine enough in that thats what they do

heres the last 4 days of videos
Opera Snapshot_2023-01-16_130602_www.youtube.com.png

i mean fuck Tories and other right wing cranks - its just the converted laughing at the afflicted for the most part
just feel like it could be a lot more seditious than it is

"Anyway, don't just want to just moan at NM, they do certain things well, and maybe we just need a bigger left media ecosystem.!"
 
my 'problem' with Novara is that its too UK headline based, and some pretty nonsense headline click bait stuff at that at times
it doesnt inspire any action or have little if any activist crossover
which is fine enough in that thats what they do

heres the last 4 days of videos

i mean fuck Tories and other right wing cranks - its just the converted laughing at the afflicted for the most part
just feel like it could be a lot more seditious than it is

"Anyway, don't just want to just moan at NM, they do certain things well, and maybe we just need a bigger left media ecosystem.!"
Yeah, that's the (or at least a) big question I guess, how much more seditious could the format be? Like, thinking about something like Notes From Below or AngryWorkers, both of which are closer to my idea of what proper class politics should be like, mostly based on anonymous reports from workers talking about their workplaces rather than individual figureheads/stars - could you fit that kind of content into a Youtube/Tiktok format? And what would it look like if so? Tbf, I think I do remember there being talk of tiktok being used to spread the Amazon wildcats last summer, so there is some possibility there... but I don't think it really looks like Novara, or even Hasan Piker or whatever.
 
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Huh, have been skim-reading this giant discussion that I posted over on the Fisher thread in preparation for actually reading it properly when I get a chance, but on examining it I think it's relevant to this thread too:
The bit that just jumped out at me, from part 2:
Anwen Crawford: I just want to clarify something with regard to this discussion about ‘going public’, from my own perspective, because there seems to be a misunderstanding that what I’m in favour of is not being read, which also implies having no real ambition regarding the quality of one’s work (because who cares if it’s any good, if no one will read it?). I want to draw a distinction, because it’s an important distinction, to me, between having one’s work published and/or circulated, which of course implies a ‘public’ (and I count the self-publishing models of zines and blogs as forms that imply a reading public; indeed I agree with Simon that all writing implies a reader and I would include both diary and letter writing in this, too), and being a public figure.

To me, desiring the former does not mean you have to want the latter, or that you should be made to feel like you should want it. Carl put it very well [in the previous instalment] as the ‘desire to speak and be heard but not to be seen, to be central to something without being the centre of attention’.

But it makes me quite cranky when the distinction between public work and public fame is collapsed, i.e. if you don’t want the latter thing, fame, then you mustn’t care, really, about whether your work is any good. To my mind, nothing could be further from the truth. I believe in self-effacement, in the sense of being able to choose to be ‘faceless’ to the public, of masking, pseudonymity, anonymity, all those things that blogs did so well — but I don’t think it means having to shrink one’s political and artistic ambitions, nor do I think it necessarily means giving up on ‘competition’ in the sense of being spurred on to do better things by argument, discussion, other people’s work, and so on. It’s not the only model, but it’s a model, and to my mind perhaps a more promising model than the left trying to find itself some ‘charismatic’ TV stars. The logic of personal fame — and social media is owned and engineered by people who fetishise the anti-democracy of fame — will only ever trap us within a dull, reductive model of everyone-as-their-own-brand. I don’t think that strategising through/about swarms, masks, crowds or ‘facelessness’ is at all trivial, given the context we’re living in with regards to the mass surveillance machine of the current internet.

I’m still interested in the project of a counterculture for the present, not just as a substitute or a consolation for the failure of political projects, but as something connected with a political project? And I don’t think pop music, per se, is the vehicle for this — I don’t think it was ever able to be, not in the 60s, or 70s, or now; not as an art form wholly produced by, and within, the logic of capitalism, alluring as the dream of revolution-through-pop might be. But music outside of the pop machine, theatre, visual art, writing, film, architecture — all of these have potential to be reimagined by us, reinvigorated by us. This is the popular culture I’m thinking of, though I’m also thinking, here, of the Situationist line that art as a ‘specialised field’ must be overcome….

Rhian E. Jones: I did particularly want to second Anwen’s distinction between placing importance on finding a reading/viewing/listening public and being a public figure, and there being no need for one to follow on from the other.

I do wonder if the current inability to separate the reading public from being a public figure is a result of not only the apparent generational loss of the idea of the public intellectual (not that that tradition was without its problems), but also the loss in the 90s, and after, of the idea of political writers, activists, spokespeople, etc. having a representative function that was wider than themselves. With an elected position like trade union leader it’s fairly obvious from where you derive your authority, but when you’re an individual left/liberal pundit it’s less obvious and so — increasingly, at least in the last decade — there’s a tendency to appeal to personal validity and integrity to explain where you’re coming from through an articulation of the circumstances that have shaped you personally, rather than a materialist appeal to the section of society you’re seen to represent. You couldn’t merely be doing an ‘ordinary’ job and be an ‘ordinary’ person — or be dissatisfied, alienated and struggling financially in the fairly mundane way common to millions under late-stage capitalism — and just think socialism was a good idea.

Some of this has eventuated in what’s now called ‘authentocracy’ but, like all of this, it’s been a long time coming. We now have almost the reverse of that desire to be heard but not seen; the first principle of media recognition or attention for individuals who [now] attempt to say something political is: ‘is this person interesting enough to be seen?’ rather than ‘is what this person is saying interesting enough to be heard?’, and individuals often seem to have internalised that in how they approach both traditional and social media. Even before social media, decades of the mediatisation of politics also meant a concentration on charismatic individuals at the expense of mass involvement with party democracy. The media’s huge emphasis on individual charisma — and when it isn’t present, the insistence that it is — when pushing particular political figures or pundits has intersected really destructively with this. I seem to recall Novara’s roots were broadly Situationist (were they part of the Deterritorial Support Group, or am I misremembering?), so I tend to cut them a bit of slack, but I also regret their turn from research and analysis to punditry. How well Mark could have fitted into this media landscape, or attempted to alter or subvert it, I don’t know.
 
Another chunk from that same conversation:
Ivor Southwood: As those para-academic political blogs led by k-punk have fragmented into social media and cohered into books, a lot of the space they once occupied has been filled by podcasts and videos, of which Novara is perhaps the most well known. These are inevitably more personalised and tied to ‘real-life’ careers than were their blog precursors. This is not of course to suggest that blogs are immune from entrepreneurial aspirations, but even a relatively low budget ‘DIY’ podcast relies on social connections, public self-confidence and time/space which aren’t available to most people and weren’t necessary for a non-professional blog. For instance, it was no big deal for me to upload a blog post, but I would never have contemplated recording a podcast or video, so if this had been the dominant medium a decade ago for better or worse my routines on precarious work and welfare would never have been developed or shared with anyone.

Obviously there are podcasts which are genuinely collaborative and politically progressive, and they are an unprecedented means of directly broadcasting previously unheard, marginalised voices. I wonder though, whether in the particular realm of the former blogosphere under discussion here, the change in medium has tended to favour individuals armed with a confidence often acquired from particular class or educational backgrounds, and to overlook those who aren’t well-connected or don’t want to put themselves ‘out there’ for various reasons. As noted by Rhian with regards to journalism, there is a whiff of privilege here also.

This class-based confidence, embodied in the ‘urbane at-homeness-in-the-world’ of entitlement — and the opposite feeling of not-belonging and inferiority — was a constant thread in Mark’s work (see for instance here, and here). These factors continue to exert an influence on how public discourse is shaped, both offline and online.

Carl Neville: I think the above is an excellent point by Ivor. Blogging meant that all kinds of marginal figures and people who had marinated away in their garrets for years stewing in half-digested theory and resentment (i.e. me) could suddenly get it all out there. It’s a little bit analogous to this sudden opening up of political space in the Labour party via Corbynism. If you go to any Momentum meeting it does of course have its fair share of cranks, oddballs, and conspiracists, BUT this is an inevitable consequence of everyone having been on their own for so long. Things get obsessive and often vaguely unhinged when you have spent so much time in the wilderness. So some of the energy of early blogging is just that: a massive cathartic release in which provocation, identification, a certain wildness are key and ideas and personas swirl around in quite a turbulent way.

I was having a chat with my brother-in-law about this new, younger generation of leftists the other day and their heavy presence in the media and he asked me essentially if I was envious or resentful of their opportunities to be famous and on the left in a way that I in my 20s never had. I have to say I am not; I simply wasn’t capable of the kind of confidence they demonstrate.

The basic question is the Shy Radicals one right? To what extent does the current mediascape allow for the introverted to express themselves? I think k-punk’s obsessive depersonalisation/anti-facialisation/desire for the collective was one manifestation of this desire to speak and be heard but not to be seen, to be central to something without being the centre of attention. I think, generationally, to some extent, the idea of selling yourself and networking are anathema to the sense of how a person ought to operate in the world and blogs also represented a way in which people could escape the increasing impingement of neoliberal selfhood. I wonder if some of Mark’s difficulties later weren’t a consequence of feeling he ought to be having a media career of some kind and finding he just didn’t want it, wasn’t up for it and that the logic of web 2.0 meant that he would have had to realign himself in ways that were essentially impossible for him.

It is true that blogs come from a different technological regimen — I mean, I remember, I think via Blissblog, discovering YouTube and a link to a PiL video that took ages to load, or Nina Power trying to get everyone to join this new thing called (tellingly) Facebook. So a lot of the blogging was happening at a real juncture in the ways in which online life and the availability of online resources were really altering into the kinds of platforms that have dominated the last decade. And [which] possibly entrenched certain neoliberal forms of selfhood even amongst those most deeply opposed to it.
 
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