Urban v's the Commentariat

[J Ed]

So Owen Jones is a bit trigger happy with the old block function: I tweeted something that mentioned 'Oxford' and 'Liberal Media bubble' following his anti-Corbyn turn (while also acknowledging that he spoken some sense after the riots), followed up with a less provocative tweet asking what he hoped to achieve by this move at the momenmt - and just noticed that I have been blocked.

Probably feels guilty

 

[8den]

When Pennydreadful met Nero (aka milo) at the RNC.

Two quotes come to mind both from "Aliens" films funnily enough;

"Whoever wins, we lose."

And

"Let's take off and nuke the site from orbit"

I’m With The Banned — Welcome to the Scream Room

 

[J Ed]

When Pennydreadful met Nero (aka milo) at the RNC.

Two quotes come to mind both from "Aliens" films funnily enough;

"Whoever wins, we lose."

And

"Let's take off and nuke the site from orbit"

I’m With The Banned — Welcome to the Scream Room

He tells me that the reason I have a column is that I’m a useful idiot and all my readers have low IQs. I ask him if he’s negging me.

There are a few good lols in that

 

[J Ed]

The milo phenomenon is so strange, how is it that a camp Brit has become the conduit for the anger of young right-wing Americans? They really, really love him in a way that I find mystifying.

 

[FridgeMagnet]

There's a whole thread about MY btw: Milo Banned!

 

[8den]

There's a whole thread about MY btw: Milo Banned!

I thought this was excellent cross purpose multimedia
re conceptualisation exploring the "MRA movement" from both a feminist and socialist perspective.

 

[J Ed]

I actually enjoyed Penny's piece, in parts it was very funny, but I don't really get what she is saying about the irony thing. I watched the whole of the gays for Trump milo video because I didn't understand what she meant about Americans having a different reaction to milo because they struggle with irony and having watched the video I am no further forward.

milo sets out a position, the leftist stab in the back to curry favour with practicioners of Islam, that I have heard in the past from other gay right-wingers, even ones who don't take an active interest in politics. It's a pretty well established narrative now, he's just presenting it in a theatrical style.

I have to admit I don't 'get' what people like about milo, and his relative lack of career success in the UK compared with the US can probably be attributed to something but I don't know what it is. I don't think it's getting or not getting irony.

 

[inva]

I have to admit I don't 'get' what people like about milo, and his relative lack of career success in the UK compared with the US can probably be attributed to something but I don't know what it is. I don't think it's getting or not getting irony.

could it not be just that the anti-'SJW'/MRA/whatever crowd is bigger in the US than over here? that's my impression anyway.

 

[equationgirl]

(((Jack Monroe))) ‏@MxJackMonroe 40m40 minutes ago
Oh my god no general election no no no no no no WILL SOMEONE PLEASE THINK OF THE COCKING POLITICAL JOURNALISTS WE HAVEN'T SLEPT SINCE APRIL

'Doctor' prefix now ( wisely ) dispensed with, so it's 'POLITICAL JOURNALIST' time.

'

Probably best, if memory serves it was honorary anyway and most honorary doctorate degrees don't confer the title as far as I'm aware.

 

[equationgirl]

I actually enjoyed Penny's piece, in parts it was very funny, but I don't really get what she is saying about the irony thing. I watched the whole of the gays for Trump milo video because I didn't understand what she meant about Americans having a different reaction to milo because they struggle with irony and having watched the video I am no further forward.

milo sets out a position, the leftist stab in the back to curry favour with practicioners of Islam, that I have heard in the past from other gay right-wingers, even ones who don't take an active interest in politics. It's a pretty well established narrative now, he's just presenting it in a theatrical style.

I have to admit I don't 'get' what people like about milo, and his relative lack of career success in the UK compared with the US can probably be attributed to something but I don't know what it is. I don't think it's getting or not getting irony.

My favourite bit of that article was where she talked about the media being full of posh graduates as if she wasn't one of them. Laurie, you went to Oxford, remember?

I don't get the whole milo thing either. I think it's because he's made being a twat into a career.

 

[emanymton]

There are a few good lols in that

Maybe, but I couldn't make it past the first paragraph.

 

[inva]

could it not be just that the anti-'SJW'/MRA/whatever crowd is bigger in the US than over here? that's my impression anyway.

adding further to this, if we try to trace the development of this particular right wing trend I think you would go back from the present swamp through 4chan angry geek culture and its edgy racism/mysogny/homophobia etc, as well as the Ron Paul presidential campaign of 2008 (particularly its internet presence) which I think saw some of this form into something approaching a precursor movement (remembering the defences of racism and ideology of strong vs weak). There's also the 9/11 conspiracy theorists who overlap here and this conspiracy mindset is definitely widespread among anti-SJWs/MRAs/etc regarding cultural Marxism, misandry and so on which further connects with older strands of the US anti Communist right but also has strong similarities I believe with white supremacists and the paranoia, conspiracy and viciousness of racist ideology.

There's legacies then I think of narratives of cold war, race war and culture war which have shaped how this has evolved. So compared with the UK there is a larger space for this kind of politics and with much deeper roots, where here although it is present and possibly growing it's existing in a shallower way, perhaps too reliant on internet culture and lacking the historical ingredients that have nurtured it in the US.

Regarding irony which you mentioned J Ed describing Penny's argument, like you I can't see how it is much of an explanation for Yiannopoulos' popularity. There is an 'ironic' element in the way he and others who share those politics present themselves largely derived as far as I know from its internet form and ties with 'chan' culture/Encyclopedia Dramatica where 'ironic racism' merges seamlessly with real racism, for example. What it does provide is a level of deniability and this can help to establish legitimacy for its views. The most obvious example being how people were taken in by gamergate (it's actually about ethics or whatever that meme thing was). It can also be seen in the way that Laurie Penny and others engage with people like Yiannopoulos and self styled white supremacist Andrew Auernheimer in a way that they never would without that layer of irony. It's a feeble excuse for giving them airtime and glamourising them in my opinion.

Anyway, that's my explanation from what I know. I didn't go in to US libertarianism much aside from Ron Paul but that's mixed up in it too isn't it.

 

[8den]

If she was such a committed feminist, even her tact acceptance of Milo's intolerance and misogyny by turning up and hanging out with him is nauseating. I'm not of the "no free speech" school, but that doesnt mean you should go out on the pull with them afterwards.

 

[crossthebreeze]

If she was such a committed feminist, even her tact acceptance of Milo's intolerance and misogyny by turning up and hanging out with him is nauseating. I'm not of the "no free speech" school, but that doesn't mean you should go out on the pull with them afterwards.

Well yes - she can either be the kind of journalist who befriends and gets into marginally gonzo-style adventures with all sorts of outrageous and dubious characters, and then reports back (from a left/feminist perspective even) in order to shed light on some dark elements of politics or culture or whatever - great (I actually quite enjoyed that article)! Or she can be the kind of commentator that aims to be the voice of the queer feminist left or whatever. She doesn't have enough self-awareness (or maybe she does but just doesn't care) that getting hammered with Milo and going on the pull with him, or getting a tinder date with Geert Wilder's mate, or going to Weev's parties, undermine her queer feminist radical leftist credentials yet she'd still happy to put herself in the position (with then help of her oxford/public school network) of being the go-to commentator whenever channel 4 news or the guardian want a "radical" perspective. Then she wonders why she gets so much criticism!

 

[8den]

Well yes - she can either the kind of journalist who befriends and gets into marginally gonzo-style adventures with all sorts of outrageous and dubious characters, and then reports back (from a left/feminist perspective even) in order to shed light on some dark elements of politics or culture or whatever - great (I actually quite enjoyed that article)! Or she can be the kind of commentator that aims to be the voice of the queer feminist left or whatever. She doesn't have enough self-awareness (or maybe she does but just doesn't care) that getting hammered with Milo and going on the pull with him, or getting a tinder date with Geert Wilder's mate, or going to Weev's parties, undermine her queer feminist radical leftist credentials yet she'd still happy to put herself in the position (with then help of her oxford/public school network) of being the go-to commentator whenever channel 4 news or the guardian want a "radical" perspective. Then she wonders why she gets so much criticism!

Said it much better than I.

 

[J Ed]

Why It's Important to See Women Smoking Weed | VICE | United States

 

[crossthebreeze]

Why It's Important to See Women Smoking Weed | VICE | United States

the most important feminist struggle

 

[J Ed]

the most important feminist struggle

tbh it makes some good points about every day sexism but I just love the title

 

[revol68]

Have to say I like the Milo character, he's a complete cynic and so transparent but still these earnest idiots get wound up by him.

He's basically a camp in shape Eric Cartman and everyone loves Cartman, not despite him being an asshole but because of it.

 

[Idris2002]

Have to say I like the Milo character, he's a complete cynic and so transparent but still these earnest idiots get wound up by him.

He's basically a camp in shape Eric Cartman and everyone loves Cartman, not despite him being an asshole but because of it.

Fucking hell, it's revol68. Where've you been, man? And what did you see out there?

 

[revol68]

Fucking hell, it's revol68. Where've you been, man? And what did you see out there?

Not been up to much, just came back to see if the IWCA statement on BLM UK had whipped up any bunfights. It doesn't appear to have and everyone is being annoyingly reasonable in the P&P forums

 

[Brainaddict]

Thought I'd take the unusual step of posting a comment piece I quite like (don't worry, it contradicts some other commentariat types so is still in the spirit of the thread): Why allies are welcome to criticise social movements

I like it because I've sometimes felt the 'shut up and listen' line to be not very useful in certain situations. E.g. when discussing racism with black people who tell me racism isn't important and black people should stop going on about it (has happened a couple of times to me). Or even in that awkward situation where one black person tells you white dreadlocks are cultural appropriation, and another says they are proud of the influence of black culture they demonstrate. You can't really avoid having your own opinions on things that are happening to groups less privileged than you - just hopefully after listening for a while...

 

[butchersapron]

Allies is a disgusting concept that starts from the position of discrete competing interests (closely tied to culture - i.e race) who can temporarily re-align over certain specific issues then move away again to their different interests. Like states. Fuck allies.

 

[Brainaddict]

Allies is a disgusting concept that starts from the position of discrete competing interests (closely tied to culture - i.e race) who can temporarily re-align over certain specific issues then move away again to their different interests. Like states. Fuck allies.

Don't you think it gets used in different ways sometimes? Your description seems like the extreme end of it. I feel like I've seen uses of the word admit that the interests of 'allies' can be aligned long-term. The article above implies that men and women can fight together against sexism, for example - and have a shared interest in doing so. It seems to me that at the better end of the concept, it can include the idea that people might have different life experiences but still need to work together.

 

[butchersapron]

Don't you think it gets used in different ways sometimes? Your description seems like the extreme end of it. I feel like I've seen uses of the word admit that the interests of 'allies' can be aligned long-term. The article above implies that men and women can fight together against sexism, for example - and have a shared interest in doing so. It seems to me that at the better end of the concept, it can include the idea that people might have different life experiences but still need to work together.

It's current - and i would say near sole - use is in political organisng and analysis is as weaponised specialised racialised tactical manouvere. It's part of an agenda driven discourse of personal grudges and careerist bureaucratic tricks.

Of course all the soppy stuff you mention still exists but isn't what is meant here. Not by a long shot.

 

[Ole]

Allies is a disgusting concept that starts from the position of discrete competing interests (closely tied to culture - i.e race) who can temporarily re-align over certain specific issues then move away again to their different interests. Like states. Fuck allies.

What a great point.

 

[The39thStep]

Not been up to much, just came back to see if the IWCA statement on BLM UK had whipped up any bunfights. It doesn't appear to have and everyone is being annoyingly reasonable in the P&P forums

Can't disagree with their sentiments. How's the anarchist scene in Ireland ?

 

[revol68]

Shite tbh, wsm took another opportunist turn into intersectionalist sjw guff. Belfast has a tiny anarcho scene but no critical mass.

I'm not really interested in activism though

 

[ViolentPanda]

Don't you think it gets used in different ways sometimes? Your description seems like the extreme end of it. I feel like I've seen uses of the word admit that the interests of 'allies' can be aligned long-term. The article above implies that men and women can fight together against sexism, for example - and have a shared interest in doing so. It seems to me that at the better end of the concept, it can include the idea that people might have different life experiences but still need to work together.

We didn't call long-term political partners "allies" back in the day. We called them "comrades". This lot, they're not about long-term commitment to ideals, they're about garnering short-term political advantage by partnering up with any old cunt whose political reach will benefit theirs/give them some credibility points.

 

[DaveCinzano]

Tangential, but ballpark nonetheless:

“Who is controlling the production of the history of Kenya? That was white men from Oxbridge, not a young American girl from Harvard,” she says.

Uncovering the brutal truth about the British empire | Marc Parry

Ah! The old plucky outsider from Harvard motif

(Interesting article, mind.)