Urban v's the Commentariat

[seventh bullet]

Yes, quite a lot of Western Maoists were supportive of "Democratic Kampuchea", partly because the Khmer Rouge were seen as a successful national liberation movement (they beat the imperial powers and their local puppets before the Vietnamese did) and partly because Pol Pot and Co tended to align themselves with China rather than Russia. Most, but not all, of them eventually realised that this was not a good idea.

I'm no fan of the CP(ML) at all, but they were very much larger and much less nuts than the MIM. They were a real thing rather than a couple of strange lads with a typewriter.

They beat them partly because of the vital support given and large gains made by the Vietnamese on Cambodian soil against FANK, if we look at it from 1970-73. The victories were only two weeks apart, but capturing Phnom Penh before the northerners captured Saigon was a source pride for the CPK.

I think westerners (non-Maoists included) also failed to understand the deterioration of relations between the Cambodian and Vietnamese parties, either seeing outward signs of fraternal solidarity (for a time) or viewing it through a crude understanding of Sino-Soviet enmity.

 

[Nigel Irritable]

They beat them partly because of the vital support given and large gains made by the Vietnamese on Cambodian soil against FANK, if we look at it from 1970-73. The victories were only two weeks apart, but capturing Phnom Penh before the northerners captured Saigon was a source pride for the CPK.

I think westerners (non-Maoists included) also failed to understand the deterioration of relations between the Cambodian and Vietnamese parties, either seeing outward signs of fraternal solidarity (for a time) or viewing it through a crude understanding of Sino-Soviet enmity.

Agreed on both points. There was a misunderstanding generally of both the intense nationalism of the KR and their intense weirdness. So they tended to be seen either as a simple offshoot and junior ally of the Vietnamese or alternatively as "Pro-Chinese" for Sino-Soviet split reasons rather than "Pro-Chinese" for anti-Vietnam reasons.

 

[seventh bullet]

They weren't 'weird' so much as crudely formulaic. I think their xenophobia and nationalism is misunderstood. It was still within a Marxist-Leninist framework of national liberation, 'building socialism' via rapid industrialisation and eventual communism (as they understood it). It needs to be said that the above wasn't something most of the country's population was aware of, but it was imposed upon them and quickly rejected (the wartime united front masking the party enjoyed widespread but never majority peasant support, and that was soon lost). There were 'traditional' reasons with regard to the rural social structure (as well as living conditions and terror) that saw no coordinated, country-wide resistance, however.

In doctrinal terms, they owed a lot to their later mortal enemies, and the Vietnamese after 1979 encouraged the idea that they were weird 'fascist' crazies, rather than through the toxic circumstances of a brutal and devastating war, and inexperience when rocketed to positions of authority, the Cambodians shared the same Stalinist/Maoist politics in important respects.

They did however gain inspiration from the PRC, but not wholesale copying.

 

[toblerone3]

I don't really get this thread at all.

 

[rekil]

He did that entire album protesting against Rio Tinto, didn't he? Never Mined or something?

Victory to Nickelback who have cast off the cowl of conference level pussyfootin' gunge to proclaim that we're (Standin' On The) Edge Of A Revolooshawn

 

[Nigel Irritable]

They weren't 'weird' so much as crudely formulaic. I think their xenophobia and nationalism is misunderstood. It was still within a Marxist-Leninist framework of national liberation, 'building socialism' via rapid industrialisation and eventual communism (as they understood it). It needs to be said that the above wasn't something most of the country's population was aware of, but it was imposed upon them and quickly rejected (the wartime united front masking the party enjoyed widespread but never majority peasant support, and that was soon lost). There were 'traditional' reasons with regard to the rural social structure (as well as living conditions and terror) that saw no coordinated, country-wide resistance, however.

In doctrinal terms, they owed a lot to their later mortal enemies, and the Vietnamese after 1979 encouraged the idea that they were weird 'fascist' crazies, rather than through the toxic circumstances of a brutal and devastating war, and inexperience when rocketed to positions of authority, the Cambodians shared the same Stalinist/Maoist politics in important respects.

They did however gain inspiration from the PRC, but not wholesale copying.

I think this seriously understates the weirdness of the KR.

Their nationalism, of a particularly intense and chauvinist kind, was not simply a local variant of a "national liberation" strategy, but was also in very large part targeted against their (also colonised) neighbours and internal minorities. Their anti-city, back to the land, stance was, of course justified in terms of ultimately developmentalist goals, but as a starting point was a nearly unique inversion of Stalinist norms.

That they started out within a Stalinist ideological framework is certainly true. That their brutality was shaped by the devastation wrought by the long war against colonialism is equally certain. As is the undoubted fact that the Vietnamese had every reason to portray them as entirely sui generis, nothing to with us gov. But nonetheless there really is nothing quite like them in the whole rotten collection of Stalinist regimes. Compare their rule to that of the WPV or the Pathet Lao, all stemming from the same original party, all coming to power after devastating wars, all inexperienced. Yet their neighbours in different ways were rather obviously within the broad Stalinist mainstream, while the KR very quickly went haywire.

 

[seventh bullet]

I think this seriously understates the weirdness of the KR.

Their nationalism, of a particularly intense and chauvinist kind, was not simply a local variant of a "national liberation" strategy, but was also in very large part targeted against their (also colonised) neighbours and internal minorities.

What I meant earlier was top-down industrial development within a national framework, but separate to and outdoing a unified Vietnam; this partly was tied to a fear, whether or not the Vietnamese had the resources or inclination, to dominate the area. More broadly, the crudity of its interpretation, the brutality in which it was carried out, and the differing paths based on an individual country's 'needs' (from a Communist Party's view of how to begin industrial development) doesn't disqualify CPK use of doctrine taught to them by the ICP/VWP, even when they went their own, independent way.

Their anti-city, back to the land, stance was, of course justified in terms of ultimately developmentalist goals, but as a starting point was a nearly unique inversion of Stalinist norms.

The country was overwhelmingly rural anyway and the CPK's aim for rapid industrialisation was to begin there, so 'back to the land' implies a different kind of society the CPK controlled in 1975 and the government's goals. Also, as the war went on the country was divided into a united front/Communist-controlled countryside versus besieged urban islands held by the Republic, protected by the USAF and supplied by American aid. There were obvious reasons why the urban areas were viewed as 'enemy' territory, however their populations bulged from the influx of rural people escaping the aerial bombing and fighting. They would've wanted to return to their villages after the war, but they too were viewed as the 'enemy' by CPK cadres. What is sometimes forgotten is that the 'new' people treated so harshly by the Communists also consisted of peasant refugees, not just genuine urbanites.

The revolution intended to do away with traditional village life altogether, without the peasantry's say so. The all-out effort to produce agricultural surpluses, and the transformation of the countryside to lay the foundations for building light and later heavy industry, saw the attacking of social institutions the peasantry held dear.

That they started out within a Stalinist ideological framework is certainly true. That their brutality was shaped by the devastation wrought by the long war against colonialism is equally certain. As is the undoubted fact that the Vietnamese had every reason to portray them as entirely sui generis, nothing to with us gov. But nonetheless there really is nothing quite like them in the whole rotten collection of Stalinist regimes. Compare their rule to that of the WPV or the Pathet Lao, all stemming from the same original party, all coming to power after devastating wars, all inexperienced. Yet their neighbours in different ways were rather obviously within the broad Stalinist mainstream, while the KR very quickly went haywire.

If you're doing so, then it would be silly to talk of the Vietnamese being inexperienced in war and government by the 1970s. Unlike the CPK, they had had decades of struggle under their belt and practising government with the DRV. Marxist-Leninist revolution (the Vietnamese version was of a Soviet-Chinese blend) within ex-Indochina came from them, yes. And, after all, and as you said, the Cambodian and Laotian parties were originally formed by and were subordinate to the Vietnamese (in Cambodia's case the KPRP, and then in the 1960s the WPK). That relations between the Cambodian and Vietnamese parties eventually broke down doesn't mean that they completely broke from the doctrine and its 'rules' originally laid out by them. Its severity is partially explained by Sihanouk's outwardly friendly but inwardly repressive positions in the 1960s as the Vietnamese confronted the United States.

 

[Idris2002]

seventh bullet does this link work?

https://docs.google.com/file/d/0ByuoxXBRjQoAM2Fablp2UlpEaDA/edit

 

[Idris2002]

I don't really get this thread at all.

You don't get it? How do you think we feel?

 

[ManchesterBeth]

I haven't read either. His Maoist history is vaguely referred to in the intro I think, saw it mentioned somewhere. I would be interested if you can get hold of copies.

Here's a PDF of the Cope book

Bromma coming later today.

 

[ManchesterBeth]

And here's Bromma's Worker Elite In PDF and Epub formats

 

[ManchesterBeth]

For MTW feminism (or proletarian feminism, as some like to call it) there is Butch Lee and Red Rover's Nightvision: Illuminating War and Class on the Neocolonial Terrain.
Link to PDF

 

[J Ed]

http://liartownusa.tumblr.com/post/100268870650/liartownusa-has-always-celebrated-online-social

 

[tufty79]

http://liartownusa.tumblr.com/post/100268870650/liartownusa-has-always-celebrated-online-social

That is *amazing*

 

[DotCommunist]

imagine doing the 12 days of christmas song but having to remember all them in a list

 

[frogwoman]

Each of these twelve adorable kittens was subject to a week-long, grueling interview process to ensure there was absolutely nothing problematic in its beliefs. Unlike bland, privileged garbage kittens chosen for nothing more than shallow good looks, Social Justice Kittens radiate fierce strength in the face of untold adversity, and all are gifted with a dazzling array of genders and orientations to go with their tiny, oh-so-kissable faces! The patriarchy WILL NEVER accept these kittens!

 

[equationgirl]

June kitty is the best

 

[seventh bullet]

December for me.

 

[J Ed]

April is the best

 

[Favelado]

April is the best

The cruellest month.

 

[JimW]

I'm appalled at the speciesist objectification and and whisker-shaming going on here.

 

[Idris2002]

 

[Greebo]

http://liartownusa.tumblr.com/post/100268870650/liartownusa-has-always-celebrated-online-social

I am so tempted to spread that around face ache for the element of WTAF. *sits on hands*

 

[fractionMan]

http://liartownusa.tumblr.com/post/100268870650/liartownusa-has-always-celebrated-online-social

Are those real quotes?

 

[fractionMan]

Has to be July.

 

[rekil]

Laurie back on form after trying to make a hero out of a nazi. Having a go at the real enemy. Horrid white socialists exploiting Ferguson to promote their brand.

And again. The number of leaflets and far left groups in Boston has apparently expanded since last time. (LP = E Jane Cochrane/Nellie Bly)



And here's a Boston SA leaflet on facebook. No idea if they're one of the guilty old white man parties or not, but how peculiar that this does not quite match the description LP is so keen to relay to her (white liberal) audience.

 

[Nigel Irritable]

And here's a Boston SA leaflet on facebook. No idea if they're one of the guilty old white man parties or not, but how peculiar that this does not quite match the description LP is so keen to relay to her (white liberal) audience

SA are the largest far left outfit in Boston, so the chances are good.

 

[J Ed]

What is she even trying to get at with these lies? Being as direct as she is pretending they are seems clumsy, patronising and like bad politics but it isn't exactly wrong is it. These problems are the fault of both systemic racism and neoliberalism, both of these things are inseparable. Has she decided that capitalism isn't actually the problem or something? I knew she was on a trajectory towards becoming a Julie Burchill or whatever but has her time in America convinced her of the righteousness of the supremacy of her class this quickly?

 

[fogbat]

December for me.

I'd fuck any of them, tbh.

 

[rekil]

“An insane neonazi hacker threatens to destroy the intersectionalnet - and only two women stand in his way. But can ex-CIA hitwoman Laura Pennyred, who turned her back on the assassin's life to become the world's most successful academic in the history of media studies, and reformed art terrorist Malificent Croboppel, stop him in time?”

Uh oh.

In the near future, the police state is veiled by an attention economy generating an endlessly diverting, vacuous spectacle which involves all the dwellers above its dungeons, via social media, in a narcissistic dance of ambition and performance.

Caroline Benjie is a naïve Candide come to the big city to find a life and career, like everyone else, through promotion via social media. She is living on the margins in Crown Heights when opportunity knocks, as it does in these times for young women who can attract eyeballs. Her newfound friend, the minicelebrity Amanda Abbey, arranges for her to work as a journalist at an up-and-coming radical publication, The Dilettante. Caroline is soon introduced into the murky and luxurious social circle orbiting the townhouse of Dan Hemingway, svengali of a hipster left media industry, where favours and strange errands are traded among the fashionable, well connected denizens. Caroline finds herself rising through the ranks of New York society, feted and showered with gifts and endless praise of her excellence. Is Empire a wonderful meritocracy after all, and is the insipid and unimaginative Caroline really the superior specimen of the species as she herself is increasingly convinced? Or is she a pawn chosen for her vanity and gullibility, a mere puppet in a spectacle behind which there are larger and by no means random forces at work? Is she delivering revolution to the people or is she selling the people bound hand and foot -- and strapped to electrical prods -- to her many anonymous sponsors?

E.M. Quangel's debut novel is a dystopic satirical spy novel, at once hilarious and harrowing while dissecting fame, fascism, revolution and reaction, in a future that is now.