Urban v's the Commentariat

[andysays]

Johnson & Farage aren't nazis.

They are, though, arguably basing their politics on hatred*, which was the point Rural was making, and are both to some extent allowed to get away with it because of their carefully fostered cheeky chappie personae.

*unless you'd like to argue otherwise

 

[Rural]

They are, though, arguably basing their politics on hatred*, which was the point Rural was making, and are both to some extent allowed to get away with it because of their carefully fostered cheeky chappie personae.

*unless you'd like to argue otherwise

thank u, i would like to have expressed this too, this is just what i meant

 

[killer b]

They are, though, arguably basing their politics on hatred*, which was the point Rural was making, and are both to some extent allowed to get away with it because of their carefully fostered cheeky chappie personae.

*unless you'd like to argue otherwise

don't think either of them are to any significant degree. Theyre both free market capitalists, any hatred in their politics is entirely opportunistic rather than a core value.

 

[Rural]

don't think either of them are to any significant degree. Theyre both free market capitalists, any hatred in their politics is entirely opportunistic rather than a core value.

but that could be said of cameron, ids, many members of cabinet atm, it still makes them deadly. i dont know whether what their prejudices r down to is, for instance, just greed or whether, for eg, it's just for hatred of what they see as the "other". in the end their policies have the same results - death, devastation & destruction

 

[Rural]

also, free market capitalism does not exist in this world and i dont think it ever will. the type of capitalism that passes for free market is based on hatred, prejudice & othering. it is not a level playing field. altho i have had libertarians arguing my head off for hours about this.

 

[Limerick Red]

but that could be said of cameron, ids, many members of cabinet atm, it still makes them deadly. i dont know whether what their prejudices r down to is, for instance, just greed or whether, for eg, it's just for hatred of what they see as the "other". in the end their policies have the same results - death, devastation & destruction

But its not, its the ruling class maintaining their interests, none of these people are "evil", if that was the case problems could be solved by only voting for "good" people. To try describe it in moral terms is of no help. IDS , Cameron and members of the ruling class, they are doing what they need to, to maintain power for their class, and interests.

 

[Rural]

But its not, its the ruling class maintaining their interests, none of these people are "evil", if that was the case problems could be solved by only voting for "good" people. To try describe it in moral terms is of no help. IDS , Cameron and members of the ruling class, they are doing what they need to, to maintain power for their class, and interests.

i did not mean to describe it in terms of evil, etc, i agree with u there. i just mean that whether they maintain their interests thru bigotry, dislike of certain types of ppl, or whether they do it cos of some adherence to what they see as free market capitalism, the result is the same. and making these ppl into lovable clowns is obscuring their danger. i dont know if i am making sense. for me, the evil comes into how ppl end up dying, never having a chance, the complete unfairness of it all and the way it is always, always kept the same. i dont see much point calling ppl evil, most ppl believe what they are doing is good, prob even cameron & ids. prob even hitler.

 

[andysays]

But its not, its the ruling class maintaining their interests, none of these people are "evil", if that was the case problems could be solved by only voting for "good" people. To try describe it in moral terms is of no help. IDS , Cameron and members of the ruling class, they are doing what they need to, to maintain power for their class, and interests.

So now we've gone from killer b incorrectly asserting that Rural was saying Farage and Johnson are Nazis to you incorrectly asserting that Rural is saying the ruling class are evil.

Maybe if you addressed what is actually being said rather that what you imagine is being said, there might be a discussion worth having.

So, Farage and Johnson are indeed eager free market capitalists, which to me implies or includes a hatred of the working classes, based on despising and fearing them, which is, of course, an expression of their class interest.

It's not to say that F & J are unique in this, of course they're not, but what Rural originally said was that they are to some extent able to disguise/get away with it because of their carefully cultivated personae.

And apparently there are plenty of people, even here, who inadvertantly demonstrate the truth of the point...

 

[killer b]

is that what were doing? Right.

 

[andysays]

is that what were doing? Right.

Well that's what it looks like to me, otherwise why would you leap in to defend Nigel and Boris from accusations of being Nazis, accusations which no one was making and which exist only in your mind?

 

[ViolentPanda]

Hugs really do help though, they make you feel great. I'm just not sure they have much efficiacy when it comes to combating National Socialist views

Oh, they have efficacy alright! They're great for positioning a Nazi for a shiv in the gizzard.

 

[Limerick Red]

So now we've gone from killer b incorrectly asserting that Rural was saying Farage and Johnson are Nazis to you incorrectly asserting that Rural is saying the ruling class are evil.

Maybe if you addressed what is actually being said rather that what you imagine is being said, there might be a discussion worth having.

So, Farage and Johnson are indeed eager free market capitalists, which to me implies or includes a hatred of the working classes, based on despising and fearing them, which is, of course, an expression of their class interest.

It's not to say that F & J are unique in this, of course they're not, but what Rural originally said was that they are to some extent able to disguise/get away with it because of their carefully cultivated personae.

And apparently there are plenty of people, even here, who inadvertantly demonstrate the truth of the point...

I am addressing the point, you said in #8851 that they are basing their politics on hatred, how so?

So, Farage and Johnson are indeed eager free market capitalists, which to me implies or includes a hatred of the working classes, based on despising and fearing them, which is, of course, an expression of their class interest.

Does it imply or include hatred of the working class? its not all free market capitalists voting for Farage/UKIP.

 

[Rural]

So now we've gone from killer b incorrectly asserting that Rural was saying Farage and Johnson are Nazis to you incorrectly asserting that Rural is saying the ruling class are evil.

Maybe if you addressed what is actually being said rather that what you imagine is being said, there might be a discussion worth having.

So, Farage and Johnson are indeed eager free market capitalists, which to me implies or includes a hatred of the working classes, based on despising and fearing them, which is, of course, an expression of their class interest.

It's not to say that F & J are unique in this, of course they're not, but what Rural originally said was that they are to some extent able to disguise/get away with it because of their carefully cultivated personae.

And apparently there are plenty of people, even here, who inadvertantly demonstrate the truth of the point...

i guess to go back to the commentariat thread title, i think if even LP is having a laugh with white supreme-racists or whatevs, the commentariat is very responsible for presenting these types as harmless, eccentric, bit lovable, etc. "even LP", what am i saying, i know, but she did present to be "one of us", sold herself as a revolutionary, etc. its no wonder the daily mail do such a good job of this type of spin on these type of characters. is there any media (ok i know ive only mentioned lp & the fail) that is honest about these things?

 

[ViolentPanda]

They are, though, arguably basing their politics on hatred*, which was the point Rural was making, and are both to some extent allowed to get away with it because of their carefully fostered cheeky chappie personae.

*unless you'd like to argue otherwise

I'd say that the likes of Johnson and Farage are more insidious than blatant hatemongers are, because their shit-stirring is all about political opportunism, rather than conviction. You know the pair of them would u-turn their views on a sixpence if it garnered them votes.

 

[ViolentPanda]

don't think either of them are to any significant degree. Theyre both free market capitalists, any hatred in their politics is entirely opportunistic rather than a core value.

Yup. They'd sell their grandmothers if it got them media coverage. I'm surprised Johnson hasn't denounced his Circassian great-grandmother!

 

[Rural]

I am addressing the point, you said in #8851 that they are basing their politics on hatred, how so?


Does it imply or include hatred of the working class? its not all free market capitalists voting for Farage/UKIP.

even if they are not basing their own personal politics on hatred, they deliberately stir up hatred of "foreigners", disabled, anyone they see that can be made to look "less than" and othered. i cant believe i am actually having to argue this on here. i kind of thought ppl could see this. it's obvious to me that these are their tactics. whether they believe them themselves idk. i guess i could find some farage quotes backing my opinion up, if u really want me to but id not think they are hard to find.

 

[Limerick Red]

even if they are not basing their own personal politics on hatred, they deliberately stir up hatred of "foreigners", disabled, anyone they see that can be made to look "less than" and othered. i cant believe i am actually having to argue this on here. i kind of thought ppl could see this. it's obvious to me that these are their tactics. whether they believe them themselves idk. i guess i could find some farage quotes backing my opinion up, if u really want me to but id not think they are hard to find.

Of course they do, Im not arguing they don't. Im saying that if tomorrow by some magical occurrance that the majority of English people thought the EU was the bee's knees, they would without batting an eyelid, completely U-turn on it, theirs is the politics of opportunism, the maintainance of their priviledgled place in society.

 

[killer b]

Well that's what it looks like to me, otherwise why would you leap in to defend Nigel and Boris from accusations of being Nazis, accusations which no one was making and which exist only in your mind?

I've no interest in a word-by-word dissection of the post I was replying to, but it was far from 'only in my head'. Enough people make breathless pronouncements about Farage / Johnson / Duncan Smith / etc etc being nazis for it to be necessary to challenge it when it comes up - they aren't, and to talk of them in the same breath as nazis is making those associations, whether it's meant or not. It isn't a defence of Johnson or Farage to challenge it - it's a demand for accuracy. Neo-liberal economics is the enemy, not Nazism.

 

[Rural]

Of course they do, Im not arguing they don't. Im saying that if tomorrow by some magical occurrance that the majority of English people thought the EU was the bee's knees, they would without batting an eyelid, completely U-turn on it, theirs is the politics of opportunism, the maintainance of their priviledgled place in society.

personally i believe the same, just so sadly predictable that any measure of "success" is accompanied by a seemingly corresponding lack of integrity

 

[Rural]

I've no interest in a word-by-word dissection of the post I was replying to, but it was far from 'only in my head'. Enough people make breathless pronouncements about Farage / Johnson / Duncan Smith / etc etc being nazis for it to be necessary to challenge it when it comes up - they aren't, and to talk of them in the same breath as nazis is making those associations, whether it's meant or not. It isn't a defence of Johnson or Farage to challenge it - it's a demand for accuracy. Neo-liberal economics is the enemy, not Nazism.

i dont think it's accurate to say i made a "breathless pronouncement" about those ppl being nazis. also u can talk about many things in the same breath without saying that they are the same thing. many things are linked, it does no harm to discuss this. maybe if they are not linked, good debate will reveal the truth of this.

also imo anyway nazism is definitely the enemy. i can have more than one u know!

 

[killer b]

It's a distraction. at least it is in the UK.

 

[phildwyer]

"Is this YOUR nazi friend Ms.Penny?" Dear oh dear.

Amazing innit. Doesn't that guy know the SS would have put a bullet in his brain before he'd even staggered off the train?

Was ist das, ginger hair, beard, glasses, about 4ft 9 and with more than a little of the oriental about him? Turn right schweinhund...

 

[Rural]

as George Carlin said "when fascism comes to America, it will not be in brown and black shirts. It will not be with jackboots. It will be Nike sneakers and smiley shirts. Smiley-smiley."

the commentariat (im trying to stick to the thread!) r guilty imo of assisting the ushering-in of this with distractions, by making lovable clowns of ppl who (imo) have dangerous objectives. it's bread & circuses presented to us thru a very distorted media lens.

 

[phildwyer]

Is it? She might end up doing exactly what she never intended to, if she carries on like that.

Wha dat den?

 

[phildwyer]

im trying to stick to the thread!

One of them eh? We don't have much truck with your kind round here.

 

[Rural]

One of them eh? We don't have much truck with your kind round here.

hehe i am being disruptive!

 

[killer b]

as George Carlin said "when fascism comes to America, it will not be in brown and black shirts. It will not be with jackboots. It will be Nike sneakers and smiley shirts. Smiley-smiley."

the commentariat (im trying to stick to the thread!) r guilty imo of assisting the ushering-in of this with distractions, by making lovable clowns of ppl who (imo) have dangerous objectives. it's bread & circuses presented to us thru a very distorted media lens.

Do you have anything from Bill Hicks as well?

 

[Rural]

Do you have anything from Bill Hicks as well?

*goes to look*

 

[Greebo]

Wha dat den?

If you can't be bothered to string a coherent sentence together, sweetie, I can't be bothered to try to work out exactly what Laurie Penny doesn't want to do.

'Shut up and sink back into obscurity' might be head of the list, though.

 

[phildwyer]

If you can't be bothered to string a coherent sentence together.

Racist.

'Shut up and sink back into obscurity' might be head of the list, though.

Actually, I bet she's surely tempted to do just that. I don't think her skin is particularly thick.