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Urban v's the Commentariat

weepiper said:
If women weren't doing it, someone else would have to. You (men) benefit from it by not having to do it. Or having to pay higher taxes so that someone could be paid to do it.
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Do men and women face each other as distinct classes, with unique interests?
Do men benefit from shit paternity leave? Do notions of the male bread winner ultimately benefit men? Does the brutalisation so prevalent with the construction/imposition of masculinity benefit all men, even as they self destruct into emotional retarded, violent messes?

Certainly the double shift overwhelmingly effects women but would say the demand for wages for housework be against the class interests of working class men? Essentially are womens demands fundamentally at odds with mens? I mean the way you talk about higher taxes erases any sort of actual class analysis. Whose taxes?

I don't think men so much benefit from patriarchy as just don't suffer the worst of it as much. It's like everyone is swallowing shit but some have to swallow more of it than others and even odder some people identify with their particular shit eating role because being a shit eating man is somehow something to be proud of and lord over women.
 
Left said:
all men have male privilege - I can't believe this is even controversial. Gay men are disadvantaged in lots of ways, including by misogyny, but they are not part of the sex class.
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It's controversial because not everyone agrees with it as a description or as an explanation. There are other analyses of women's oppression that aren't feminist, such as those made by Marxists. Sexism divides the working class, and women's unpaid labour strengthens capitalism, enables it to reproduce and survive. In whose interest is this?
 
What I don't get about the idea of men inherently benefiting from sexism is this - surely men with female partners who they care about and believe are their equals (and this must be the majority of men?) also suffer from misogyny on a number of levels rather than benefiting. Having your female partner subjected to verbal or physical gender violence causes distress and if you look at it from a purely economic point of view, if you are at least partly reliant on the wage of your female partner then you suffer from the wage gap as well.
 
Men benefit from sexism in the sense that it means they end up privileged over women in equivalent situations. They get paid more for doing the same jobs than women, they are allowed to do more things than women are etc etc. That is surely not controversial?

It may well be the case that everyone would benefit if there was no sexism, but part of the point of it as a social phenomenon is to create privileged groups.
 
FridgeMagnet said:
Men benefit from sexism in the sense that it means they end up privileged over women in equivalent situations. They get paid more for doing the same jobs than women, they are allowed to do more things than women are etc etc. That is surely not controversial?

It may well be the case that everyone would benefit if there was no sexism, but part of the point of it as a social phenomenon is to create privileged groups.
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Generally I agree that that men tend to get paid more than women for doing the same work but it is not always the case.

I work in a school as a teaching assistant...EVERY other teaching assistant gets paid more than me...as they are on the top of the grade and I am at the bottom of the grade. I can never catch them up as the local authority stopped annual increments 5 years ago ... this meant that those new in post start at the bottom of the scale and stay there whereas those already in post kept their increments. I am male and all the other teaching assistants are female.
This was also the exact same situation in my previous job.

I am also not sure how my partner earning less than the men in her work place benefits me as a man...especially as she is and always has been the main earner in our family since we've had kids. She has always worked full time and I have worked part time, and been a part time stay at home "house husband" (for the want of a proper term)

I'd have thought that sexism mainly benefits ruling people/bosses who use divide and rule tactics to keep their control and keep their costs down.

However the reaction towards the article surprises me as does the general annoyance towards the author... but I guess I don't know enough about her. I disagree with some of what she writes but never get annoyed with what she's written.

Finally I am always surprised that lots of people who agree with the idea that all men benefit from sexism seem to strongly disagree that all white people benefit from racism which seems contradictory to me
 
This reminds me of a single dad friend of mine who gets incredibly defensive if I ever talk about some of the ways single mothers are structurally disadvantaged in our society. Despite 92% of single parents being female.
 
comrade spurski said:
Finally I am always surprised that lots of people who agree with the idea that all men benefit from sexism seem to strongly disagree that all white people benefit from racism which seems contradictory to me
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Or that all straight people benefit from homophobia, all goyim from anti-semitism, etc etc.
 
cesare said:
Do something about it then!
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I have no legal case...the council banned all increment rises for everyone in the council and as TA's are on council terms and conditions in all the local council controlled schools I am not being discriminated against.

I find it fascinating that when a person gives an opinion like I did people respond in a manner that seems irritated/angry etc...

The women in work ain't benefiting from me not getting increments...I was simply suggesting that imo not all men benefit...it's fine to say you disagree with me, or to think I'm wrong but please don't patronise me... I ain't stupid ... I simply disagreed.
 
comrade spurski said:
I have no legal case...the council banned all increment rises for everyone in the council and as TA's are on council terms and conditions in all the local council controlled schools I am not being discriminated against.

I find it fascinating that when a person gives an opinion like I did people respond in a manner that seems irritated/angry etc...

The women in work ain't benefiting from me not getting increments...I was simply suggesting that imo not all men benefit...it's fine to say you disagree with me, or to think I'm wrong but please don't patronise me... I ain't stupid ... I simply disagreed.
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If you are doing the same work or work of equal value to female comparators, and are being paid less than those comparators - you potentially have a case (equal pay). If the council have imposed a provision, criteria or practice (in this case, stopping the increments) which results in unlawful discrimination then that's potentially another case (sex discrimination). Just because the council have decided to do something doesn't mean that it's lawful. Have you taken legal advice on this?

Edit: point to where I've patronised you please.
 
comrade spurski said:
if you want to pull me up on something please do so in a way that I understand...Laurie pennies article states all men benefit...so why the crass cap locks and cheap point scoring?
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it's been very clearly demonstrated but

(a) all men do actually benefit

(b) you are banging on about about how they don't using a really tired irrelevant trope
 
the "Do something about it then!" post came across as patronising imo.

I have taken advice from my union (unite)...I am on the same grade as my colleagues but I am not entitled to increments...nor are they...however they got increments before they were stopped by the council 5 years ago...I became a TA 4 years ago so have never received the increments therefore I am paid less...had the increments still been in place my colleague would have got to the top of the grade and I would eventually have caught up with them... but as I am on the same grade as them I am not being discriminated against.

Shit for me but there you go...however I was not trying to say I am being treated worse than women or in a sexist way but have obviously explained my point poorly so I leave the thread to get back on track
 
Citizen66 said:
I don't think gender inequality is disputable really but it sticks in the craw when someone with a private education under their belt suggests I check my privilege. Check your own.
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we have been telling her that for 247 pages (and all those other ones). Think she's allowed a swing every now and then.
 
comrade spurski said:
the "Do something about it then!" post came across as patronising imo.

I have taken advice from my union (unite)...I am on the same grade as my colleagues but I am not entitled to increments...nor are they...however they got increments before they were stopped by the council 5 years ago...I became a TA 4 years ago so have never received the increments therefore I am paid less...had the increments still been in place my colleague would have got to the top of the grade and I would eventually have caught up with them... but as I am on the same grade as them I am not being discriminated against.

Shit for me but there you go...however I was not trying to say I am being treated worse than women or in a sexist way but have obviously explained my point poorly so I leave the thread to get back on track
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It wasn't being patronising, it was an exclamation! I wouldn't leave it at that personally - Birmingham City Council springs to mind - because being on the same grade but not being paid the same as female comparators is worth pursuing. That's a matter for you though (even if it does make me !)
 
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