DotCommunist
So many particulars. So many questions.
the giant self portrait of ego
Urban v's the Commentariat
- Thread starter Belushi
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Theisticle
Well-Known Member
tim
EXPLODED TIM! (Help me!!!)
Theisticle
Well-Known Member
I obviously sympathise with them after some of the abhorrent abuse they genuinely suffer online but doing a portrait of it is simply so self-indulgent.
Pickman's model
Starry Wisdom
Tracey Emin's bed?
J Ed
Follow Back Pro Expropriation
LP claims that all men benefit from sexism without (as far as I can tell) explaining how or much at all really http://www.newstatesman.com/2013/08/laurie-penny/men-sexism
ViolentPanda
Hardly getting over it.
Now there's a surprise!
el-ahrairah
forward communism, forward gerbils!
to be fair, without reading the article, that is basically true.
comrade spurski
Well-Known Member
I disagree as I do not think it is a fact that all men benefit from sexism.
revol68
what, fucking what?
Is it that obvious is it?
What about men deemed to not match up to certain criteria? You think men who identify closer with what is commonly considered feminine traits universally benefit? You don't think historically homophobia towards gay men was bound up in sexism?
Certainly many men enjoyed a certain wages of maleness and many have and continue to fight to maintain sexism as means of bolstering their status but to claim in such a dismissive manner that all men benefit from sexism is just stupid.
Left
aimless
all men have male privilege - I can't believe this is even controversial. Gay men are disadvantaged in lots of ways, including by misogyny, but they are not part of the sex class.
revol68
what, fucking what?
yeah but taken to logical extremes and you get TERF's arguing that trans people are just out to violate women's spaces.
Growing up homophobia was always tied into sexism, these weren't real men etc. I don't think many of my gay male friends benefited from sexism, on the contrary.
SpineyNorman
Inappropriate content removed
The problem I have with the argument that all men benefit from sexism isn't that it's not true - at a basic level it clearly is, in that all other things being equal men do better out of society as it is than women (badly phrased I know but you know what I mean). It's more that if you just leave it at that it kind of sounds like all men would be worse off if we were to do away with patriarchy/sexism (or whatever you want to call it). Which makes it sound like all men have a material interest in maintaining sexism.
Fortunately I don't actually think that's true, because it's one of the props holding capitalism up and keeping it functioning (unpaid labour contributing to the social surplus bla bla bla). So on another level most men (in particular working class ones) lose out as a result of sexism, since without it the system that exploits us couldn't be maintained and conversely some women - female capitalists for example - derive material benefits from it while still being affected negatively as compared to men in a similar position.
I think if you actually want to do away with sexism, as opposed to impotent moralising, it's useful to make that qualification simply because people are less likely to support political goals that they believe will make them worse off and more likely to support ones that will make them better off.
(Warning: this post may contain stuff that reads like Marxism by numbers)
Fortunately I don't actually think that's true, because it's one of the props holding capitalism up and keeping it functioning (unpaid labour contributing to the social surplus bla bla bla). So on another level most men (in particular working class ones) lose out as a result of sexism, since without it the system that exploits us couldn't be maintained and conversely some women - female capitalists for example - derive material benefits from it while still being affected negatively as compared to men in a similar position.
I think if you actually want to do away with sexism, as opposed to impotent moralising, it's useful to make that qualification simply because people are less likely to support political goals that they believe will make them worse off and more likely to support ones that will make them better off.
(Warning: this post may contain stuff that reads like Marxism by numbers)
weepiper
I fix the machines that fight climate change
They never benefited from higher wages and better working conditions because women were at home looking after children or elderly parents? It doesn't have to be their children. Women contribute a lot of unpaid work to the economy because it traditionally is left to us.
revol68
what, fucking what?
I have the privilege of not worrying about my skin colour but do I actually gain from racism? Basically are these benefits based on a class oppression, that is do men and women, blacks and whites constitute class formations. Is it in my interest to maintain these class systems?
I don't think men and women constitute class formations, rather internal divisions and hierarchies within wider class structures.
Protestant workers could be said to benefit from sectarian hiring practices, but only if protestant workers interests are defined narrowly within the status quo and within a zero sum logic. From the perspective of a protestant worker wishing to atleast challenge the class system, sectarianism was very much against their interest.
revol68
what, fucking what?
Actually women at home looking after children or elderly parents unpaid allows capitalists to pay less than they should for the reproduction of labour power. Women do contribute most of the unpaid work to the economy but I guess the question depends on whether you think all men benefit from the reproduction of such an economy.
The issue of whether women bare the brunt of sexism is a no brainer, the question of whether it is of benefit to men is a bit less obvious.
Like I said protestants on one hand gained from sectarian employment for decades in a very direct manner but in the larger picture can it be said that it was in their interests and really in their benefit? Again depends on whether you think it's a matter of sharing out the shitness of this world in a more fair manner or reject the shitness in general.
weepiper
I fix the machines that fight climate change
If women weren't doing it, someone else would have to. You (men) benefit from it by not having to do it. Or having to pay higher taxes so that someone could be paid to do it.
SpineyNorman
Inappropriate content removed
Not sure I agree with the second bit of that post - I don't think capitalism could survive the loss of unpaid womens labour - I think getting rid of it means getting rid of capitalism so it's possible that both women and most men would be better off.
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