Urban v's the Commentariat

[rioted]

It's a generalisation, obviously, but on the whole men as a sex do benefit from sexism. I can't think of anywhere significant where this isn't the majority case socially, economically and culturally. We benefit by/from pay differentials, social attitudes, cultural assumptions and a host of other "facts on the ground".

300+ men die in coal mine in Turkey. How did they benefit from sexism? Surely its because of patriarchy it was all men underground?

 

[rioted]

You're projecting your personal situation onto the canvas of general male benefit derived from sexism, and using it to say "not all men benefit", while missing the point insofar as the established differentials that are already in existence. Yes, you're one male suffering from a pay differential, but your differential didn't come about due to a deliberate devaluing of female labour. The pay differentials that still exist between male and female salaries did come about because of that sort of institutionalised sexism.

BTW, writing "ain't" doesn't prove membership of the proletariat, comrade!

Do male supermarket checkout operators get paid more than women? Do teachers? The difference is not in women being paid less than men for the same job as much as women taking on lower paid, more often part-time jobs.

 

[weepiper]

Do male supermarket checkout operators get paid more than women? Do teachers? The difference is not in women being paid less than men for the same job as much as women taking on lower paid, more often part-time jobs.

Yes, and why do we (generally) 'take on' lower paid, more often part-time jobs? Because it's us that (generally) does the childcare. And we have to take a job that allows us to do it. And why are part-time jobs low-paid? Because we're being exploited.

 

[killer b]

jesus.

 

[rioted]

It's true. The pyramids were the ancient equivalent of HS2.

 

[rioted]

Yes, and why do we (generally) 'take on' lower paid, more often part-time jobs? Because it's us that (generally) does the childcare. And we have to take a job that allows us to do it. And why are part-time jobs low-paid? Because we're being exploited.

Who's denying that?

eta: are you suggesting that women ought to be paid more than men? I'd rather we work toward a situation where men do more childcare.

 

[ViolentPanda]

300+ men die in coal mine in Turkey. How did they benefit from sexism? Surely its because of patriarchy it was all men underground?

How did they benefit? They were able to earn a living mining coal, women weren't. Their death wasn't a "benefit". Their ability to secure a living was and is.
And yeah, you're right, it is because of patriarchy that it was all men, but that doesn't make men relatively as oppressed as women, it simply means that sometimes other social and cultural factors exert influences too.

 

[ViolentPanda]

Do male supermarket checkout operators get paid more than women? Do teachers? The difference is not in women being paid less than men for the same job as much as women taking on lower paid, more often part-time jobs.

What part of "generalisation" and my comments about some individual cases differing from the generality, did you have trouble understanding?
And why do you think that women might be taking those jobs, hmmm?

 

[ViolentPanda]

jesus.

no, rioted.

 

[Balbi]

What the fuck

 

[weepiper]

eta: are you suggesting that women ought to be paid more than men?

Yes, yes of course that's what I'm suggesting. Obviously I must be suggesting that.

 

[rioted]

How did they benefit? They were able to earn a living mining coal, women weren't. Their death wasn't a "benefit". Their ability to secure a living was and is.
And yeah, you're right, it is because of patriarchy that it was all men, but that doesn't make men relatively as oppressed as women, it simply means that sometimes other social and cultural factors exert influences too.

LOL

So the benefits they accrued were due to Patriarchy but the penalties weren't? You have a very strange view of what patriarchy is.

 

[DotCommunist]

this sort of reaction is what justifies penny's branes btw.

 

[rioted]

Yes, yes of course that's what I'm suggesting. Obviously I must be suggesting that.

It follows about as closely as your reply to me does.

 

[rioted]

What part of "generalisation" and my comments about some individual cases differing from the generality, did you have trouble understanding?
And why do you think that women might be taking those jobs, hmmm?

Because the patriarchy conspires against men doing childcare?

 

[weepiper]

It follows about as closely as your reply to me does.

My reply was because you seem to have no understanding whatsoever of why more women are in low-paid, part-time work. It's not because we're choosing it. We're trapped there.

 

[cesare]

Do male supermarket checkout operators get paid more than women? Do teachers? The difference is not in women being paid less than men for the same job as much as women taking on lower paid, more often part-time jobs.

Equal pay for the same work or work of equal value is still an issue - Birmingham City Council's had to sell the NEC to fund compensation. For example.

 

[DotCommunist]

Because the patriarchy conspires against men doing childcare?

well how come there are vastly more women teaching infants/keystage 1 than men. Is that because it's natural or is it because of societal expectations that lead less men to take on that role (and the never-far-from-sniggered nonce musings)?

using phrasing like 'patriarchy conspires' makes it sound like you are casting people as paranoids looking over their shoulders and being done down by the secret council of patriarchs. Its a descriptor for systemic inequality- process not agency

 

[rioted]

My reply was because you seem to have no understanding whatsoever of why more women are in low-paid, part-time work. It's not because we're choosing it. We're trapped there.

You might be. It may come as a surprise to you but a lot of women WANT part-time (or no) work so they can spend more time with their kids. For the work they do, they are NOT paid less than men. Like I said, I wish more men did more childcare.

 

[weepiper]

You might be. It may come as a surprise to you but a lot of women WANT part-time (or no) work so they can spend more time with their kids. For the work they do, they are NOT paid less than men. Like I said, I wish more men did more childcare.

Are you actually pulling the 'you hold the egg this way, Grandma' trick?

 

[weepiper]

These women obviously chose their situation then I suppose.

http://www.newstatesman.com/politics/2014/05/down-rabbit-hole-single-parenthood-austerity-britain

 

[rioted]

Equal pay for the same work or work of equal value is still an issue - Birmingham City Council's had to sell the NEC to fund compensation. For example.

Mainly because they wouldn't fund the increase by cap on higher scales. We went through the same thing in Nottingham City Council. The poorest paid, yes mostly but not all women, were given pay rises at the expense of other low paid workers. My grade as an IT technician was reduced so that I ended up with less money than I'd started on 10 years previously. Most of the people who lost out were women. Result!

 

[Balbi]

Not all women

 

[rioted]

These women obviously chose their situation then I suppose.

http://www.newstatesman.com/politics/2014/05/down-rabbit-hole-single-parenthood-austerity-britain

Yeah, because all single parents are women. This effects ALL single parents of whatever gender. Your over-concentration on women in that role just reinforces patriarchy. The problem is NOT that these are women, it is that they're single parents.

 

[weepiper]

Yeah, because all single parents are women. This effects ALL single parents of whatever gender. Your over-concentration on women in that role just reinforces patriarchy. The problem is NOT that these are women, it is that they're single parents.

92 fucking percent.

 

[killer b]

come back Laurie. All is forgiven.

 

[cesare]

Mainly because they wouldn't fund the increase by cap on higher scales. We went through the same thing in Nottingham City Council. The poorest paid, yes mostly but not all women, were given pay rises at the expense of other low paid workers. My grade as an IT technician was reduced so that I ended up with less money than I'd started on 10 years previously. Most of the people who lost out were women. Result!

It's a significant example of unequal pay, to counter your claim that pay is now equal. There are another couple of current large scale examples that I linked to last night. Pay differential isn't just a feature of women doing lower status and/or part time work although that's also true.

 

[DotCommunist]

*dons shoddy superhero costume*

 

[rioted]

92 fucking percent.

Yeah, and we should still have "mother & toddler" groups 'cos women do most childcare. Thank fuck we managed to change here to "parent & toddler" to encourage more men. You're stuck in the present - find ways to move forward. I would encourage more people to work part time' you seem to be bigging up full-time wage slavery.

 

[rioted]

*dons shoddy superhero costume*

Fuck off.