Ukraine and the Russian invasion, 2022-25

[discokermit]

Because we all know how well the pre-invasion talks went with the war criminal Putin lying through his fucking teeth.

both merkel and hollande have said publicly that the minsk agreements were signed in bad faith and that ukraine nor them had any intention of sticking by them. after those lies, why would anyone on any side believe anything?

 

[TopCat]

They have never been close to terms because the terms are always "do what we fucking tell you"

The Istanbul talks came close and didn’t demand surrender.

 

[TopCat]

Make a land for peace deal and end the carnage. Or continue then make a land for peace deal but with thousands more dead.

 

[Rob Ray]

The Istanbul talks came close and didn’t demand surrender.

They didn't "come close," and you know they didn't, so why pretend? It's this bananas assumption that Russia's on the level, despite all the evidence, that I find absolutely baffling from you.

 

[editor]

both merkel and hollande have said publicly that the minsk agreements were signed in bad faith and that ukraine nor them had any intention of sticking by them. after those lies, why would anyone on any side believe anything?

Wow. So you actually believe and trust Putin?

Our experts decode the Putin speech that launched Russia’s invasion of Ukraine

Vladimir Putin’s February 24, 2022, speech launching a war of aggression in Ukraine was full of false, misleading narratives that Putin, official Kremlin channels, and pro-Kremlin Russian media outlets had been circulating since 2014. Experts unpack the narrative themes that Russia used to...

www.atlanticcouncil.org

 

[editor]

Make a land for peace deal and end the carnage. Or continue then make a land for peace deal but with thousands more dead.

Or just tell the war criminal Putin and Russia to stop illegally invading other countries and stop slaughtering children, women and civilians and stop illegally bombarding people's homes, communities, hospitals, schools and infrastructure.

Just a thought.

 

[yield]

There have been a few articles over the last year that have pushed this military Keynesian theory, Volodymyr Ishchenko , a Ukrainian sociologist one of the first and it followed on from his initial articles of who in Russia benefits from the war.

He also has a book out end of this month 'Towards the Abyss: Ukraine from Maidan to War'

Russia’s military Keynesianism

The Kremlin’s strategy to redistribute wealth through the war effort may boost its legitimacy.

www.aljazeera.com

https://www.russiamatters.org/analysis/russian-military-keynesianism-who-benefits-war-ukraine

How War in Europe Boosts the U.S. Economy
Feb. 18, 2024 https://archive.is/Ab8jD
European rearmament and American aid to Ukraine flow back to defense industrial base

The latest money, on top of previous commitments, could inject funds worth about 0.5% of one year’s gross domestic product into the U.S. industrial defense base over several years.

The State Department recently said the U.S. made more than $80 billion in major arms deals in the year through September of which about $50 billion went to European allies—more than five times the historical norm, said Walton.

 

[Artaxerxes]

Honestly just never buy a house with windows in Russia

 

[existentialist]

Honestly just never buy a house with windows in Russia

This one of those suicides where the victim is found with 2 shots to the back of the head, and the gun's been wiped of fingerprints?

 

[teuchter]

I think one of the great things about this thread is all the wry comments expressing scepticism about the cause of death of those who have criticised the Putin administration. It shows that people are very knowing and clued-up, and it certainly doesn't get old or repetitive.

 

[existentialist]

I think one of the great things about this thread is all the wry comments expressing scepticism about the cause of death of those who have criticised the Putin administration. It shows that people are very knowing and clued-up, and it certainly doesn't get old or repetitive.

That's a relief. Sometimes I lie awake at night wondering if something I've written on Urban might be perceived by people like you as old or repetitive.

 

[UnderOpenSky]

Or just tell the war criminal Putin and Russia to stop illegally invading other countries and stop slaughtering children, women and civilians and stop illegally bombarding people's homes, communities, hospitals, schools and infrastructure.

Just a thought.

Just tell? You and which army?

 

[ska invita]

Or just tell the war criminal Putin and Russia to stop illegally invading other countries and stop slaughtering children, women and civilians and stop illegally bombarding people's homes, communities, hospitals, schools and infrastructure.

Just a thought.

unfortunately telling states to stop invading countries and murdering people doesn't have a good track record of working...see pretty much every war ever....so now what?

 

[editor]

Just tell? You and which army?

Yeah, you're right. Let's just shrug our collective shoulders and let Putin keep on slaughtering civilians and committing war crimes.

 

[UnderOpenSky]

Yeah, you're right. Let's just shrug our collective shoulders and let Putin keep on slaughtering civilians and committing war crimes.

It's not what I said though is it?

But "just telling" Putin is going archive the square root of fuck all. I think the West should have given even more arms, much earlier, but sadly that isn't what's happened.

 

[Monkeygrinder's Organ]

'Tell Putin to stop' and 'negotiate a peace deal' both hit exactly the same wall don't they - that Putin has the power and he's not interested.

 

[two sheds]

I think the 'just tell' was ironic

 

[existentialist]

It's not what I said though is it?

But "just telling" Putin is going archive the square root of fuck all. I think the West should have given even more arms, much earlier, but sadly that isn't what's happened.

TBH, Europe and the West is going to, sooner or later, realise that the only way to "just tell" Putin will be armaments, and quite possibly boots on the ground.

And the less we do now, the more likely that it will be sooner rather than later.

The Silicon Curtain podcast recently had an interesting piece on Russian cultural attitudes, and the notion that "being reasonable" looks to your typical Russian like weakness. And we saw that, with Chechnya, Georgia, the shenanigans in Donbas and Luhansk, and most notably the invasion of Crimea, on all of which occasions the West did precisely nothing substantive. It seems quite likely that our inaction emboldened Putin to push further and further.

I really do think that, if Russia does succeed in rolling over Ukraine, then he's going to have his eye on the Baltics, and possibly even Poland. Quite apart from the ongoing hybrid warfare that has been happening all over the place, and is one of the reasons that Russian narratives are popping up all over the world, particularly in right-wing circles.

 

[ska invita]

'Tell Putin to stop' and 'negotiate a peace deal' both hit exactly the same wall don't they - that Putin has the power and he's not interested.

no because a peace deal is backed up militarily - it formalises a military-territory arrangement....it was the manoeuvring competition between the west and east over this reality that is at the heart of the war

 

[Monkeygrinder's Organ]

no because a peace deal is backed up militarily - it formalises a military-territory arrangement....

That doesn't alter the fact that Russia needs to agree to it does it. Tbh I think the question 'what if they don't' is so obvious that anyone going 'peace deal now' and ignoring it is bordering on disingenuous.

 

[StoneRoad]

At the present rate of refurbishments / new builds, there are about two to three year's worth of tanks left in storage.

Depending on who does the counting [Oryx requires images for proof] something like 275 - 300 tanks were destroyed in the past four months to capture Adviika. Would probably have been more but Ukraine just didn't have enough of the right munitions.

 

[ska invita]

That doesn't alter the fact that Russia needs to agree to it does it. Tbh I think the question 'what if they don't' is so obvious that anyone going 'peace deal now' and ignoring it is bordering on disingenuous.

people like the head of the US army in November 2022?

 

[editor]

It's not like Russia doesn't have enough fucking land already....

Largest Countries in the World by Area - Worldometer

www.worldometers.info

 

[littlebabyjesus]

That doesn't alter the fact that Russia needs to agree to it does it. Tbh I think the question 'what if they don't' is so obvious that anyone going 'peace deal now' and ignoring it is bordering on disingenuous.

Two years in, 200,000+ dead. And the best the NATO chief has to offer is to resupply Ukraine so that we can go around the ride once again. And keep going round until Putin gives up. That's the current plan. They're not asking 'How do we end this?' Quite the reverse, they're asking 'How do we keep this going?'

 

[Artaxerxes]

Two years in, 200,000+ dead. And the best the NATO chief has to offer is to resupply Ukraine so that we can go around the ride once again. And keep going round until Putin gives up. That's the current plan. They're not asking 'How do we end this?' Quite the reverse, they're asking 'How do we keep this going?'

What can Nato do to end it?

Until Putin chooses to stop or Ukraine chooses to give up there is no other option available.

Nato cannot put boots on the ground as Russia has nuclear weaponry, it can’t target Russia, Ukraine cannot join by NATOs own rules as it’s at war.


The only thing nato can do is keep feeding Ukraine material, now it does need to do more of that but the lack is part a symptom of the bottlenecks and flaws of current stage capitalism preventing this from happening. If nato cuts off weapons totally Ukraine falls and nato becomes culpable in the inevitable chaos murder and corruption that Putin will unleash on his freshly conquered subjects. Stopping or never giving support for Ukraine also indicates to the world that it’s ok to do what Putin is doing in blithely walking into countries and taking over and rolling out death squads.


The only thing that stops this war is Putin or Russia adding up the death toll and saying that’s it I’m out or Ukraine doing the same. So far neither wants to do this, Ukraine is more likely to do so as it’s smaller and has actually lost its territory and it’s civilian population in massive numbers and it’s economy

 

[two sheds]

I've been impressed by Ukraine's restraint tbh. After everything Russia's done to their civilian population they've not responded by large scale retaliation on Russian cities, so unlike Putin they're aware of what constitute war crimes.

 

[The39thStep]

TBH, Europe and the West is going to, sooner or later, realise that the only way to "just tell" Putin will be armaments, and quite possibly boots on the ground.

And the less we do now, the more likely that it will be sooner rather than later.

The Silicon Curtain podcast recently had an interesting piece on Russian cultural attitudes, and the notion that "being reasonable" looks to your typical Russian like weakness. And we saw that, with Chechnya, Georgia, the shenanigans in Donbas and Luhansk, and most notably the invasion of Crimea, on all of which occasions the West did precisely nothing substantive. It seems quite likely that our inaction emboldened Putin to push further and further.

I really do think that, if Russia does succeed in rolling over Ukraine, then he's going to have his eye on the Baltics, and possibly even Poland. Quite apart from the ongoing hybrid warfare that has been happening all over the place, and is one of the reasons that Russian narratives are popping up all over the world, particularly in right-wing circles.

Are you saying that in order to 'just tell Putin' that Europe and the West need to consider declaring war on Russia?

 

[emanymton]

I've been impressed by Ukraine's restraint tbh. After everything Russia's done to their civilian population they've not responded by large scale retaliation on Russian cities, so unlike Putin they're aware of what constitute war crimes.

Well for 1 thing they are not really capable of it at much scale and they are very aware that not doing so is a political advantage for them. If support for outside dries up they might do a but more of it.

 

[discokermit]

TBH, Europe and the West is going to, sooner or later, realise that the only way to "just tell" Putin will be armaments, and quite possibly boots on the ground.

then europe and the west will get beat. they cant manufacture enough ammo to keep ukraine supplied, once stocks are depleted, where is europe/the west going to get shells from?

 

[rubbershoes]

All-iminated now.

https://www.reuters.com/world/europe/russian-pilot-who-defected-ukraine-shot-dead-spain-reports-2024-02-19/

I blame NATO