Ukraine and the Russian invasion, 2022-24

[Silas Loom]

I see the Russian people are voting for their president today, given the last two British prime ministers have been selected by Tory members and Tory MPs respectively there’s a good case to say Russia is more democratic than the UK

Particularly stupid to say that just after the principal Russian opposition leader has been murdered by Putin’s thugs.

 

[tim]

I see the Russian people are voting for their president today, given the last two British prime ministers have been selected by Tory members and Tory MPs respectively there’s a good case to say Russia is more democratic than the UK

You seem to be rather ignorant about the difference between a parliamentary system and an executive presidential system. Also, whatever she might have wished, Liz Truss was not able to give Sunak sent to a gulag on the Falklands and have him choked to death with penguin guano.

 

[Pickman's model]

I didn't.

Everybody knows the war is over
Everybody knows the good guys lost

 

[Pickman's model]

You seem to be rather ignorant about the difference between a parliamentary system and an executive presidential system. Also, whatever she might have wished, Liz Truss was not able to give Sunak sent to a gulag on the Falklands and have him choked to death with penguin guano.

You conjure up a pretty image. But you'd really have to work hard to choke on gentoo guano in a camp which was never going to exist

 

[Elpenor]

You seem to be rather ignorant about the difference between a parliamentary system and an executive presidential system. Also, whatever she might have wished, Liz Truss was not able to give Sunak sent to a gulag on the Falklands and have him choked to death with penguin guano.

I can tell the difference between an election and no election.

 

[Pickman's model]

I see the Russian people are voting for their president today, given the last two British prime ministers have been selected by Tory members and Tory MPs respectively there’s a good case to say Russia is more democratic than the UK

Well it's not a constitutional monarchy so it's already in with a good shout. But the difficulty putin has in persuading people of the case is he has proved reluctant to accept my advice on reducing his ballot box stuffing to say 60/40 rather than perhaps 80/20. He'd have been in a better place if AN was on the papers and the margin of victory lower than it will be. And a turnout of say 63% rather than the more greatly inflated figure anticipated. For a rigged election to confer any degree of legitimacy it must bear some relationship to the actuality of the situation and everybody knows that were free and fair elections to be held in Russia the shade of Aleksei Navalny would give putin a run for his money.

 

[ID47]

It's obviously and clearly not moderation in any shape or form.

It's a reasoned response to a truly bizarre and incoherent comment about "old washing machines and shovels, stuck together by drunks who then steal half the missile."

I don't understand, you are moderating a thread while simultaneously posting your contentious opinions on the same thread so who is moderating you?

Apologies for my stupidity but I don't get it, please explain.

 

[Silas Loom]

If the editor’s opinions were in any way contentious, you might have a point. But the general consensus in the country and on the board is that the Russian state’s invasion of Ukraine, and its determination to provide talking points for useful idiots, are both reprehensible. And there hasn’t been overt moderation, merely some pulling up of the idiocy.

 

[andysays]

I don't understand, you are moderating a thread while simultaneously posting your contentious opinions on the same thread so who is moderating you?

Apologies for my stupidity but I don't get it, please explain.

That's the perennial question, isn't it "quis custodiet ipsos custodes?"

 

[kebabking]

I don't understand, you are moderating a thread while simultaneously posting your contentious opinions on the same thread so who is moderating you?

Apologies for my stupidity but I don't get it, please explain.

It's his site, he can do what he likes with it.

There's a MOD team, and editor is, in truth pretty good about separating his personal interactions from modding decisions (in comparison to what I'd be like, for example...).

There's always beef, and not everyone gets it right all the time, and there's a feedback forum if you aren't happy with decisions that you see.

 

[Silas Loom]

If the officer class can’t tell the difference between mods, moderators and the MOD we’re definitely fucked when Russia decides to annex Kent.

 

[tim]

I can tell the difference between an election and no election.

An election where the principal challenger to the incumbent is banned from standing, gaoled and then murdered, just in case; and where even the no-hopers are struck off the ballot is not much of an election.

 

[Elpenor]

If the editor’s opinions were in any way contentious, you might have a point. But the general consensus in the country and on the board is that the Russian state’s invasion of Ukraine, and its determination to provide talking points for useful idiots, are both reprehensible. And there hasn’t been overt moderation, merely some pulling up of the idiocy.

Some of us have posted on the boards long enough to remember when these forums weren’t cheerleading for NATO

 

[tim]

If the editor’s opinions were in any way contentious, you might have a point. But the general consensus in the country and on the board is that the Russian state’s invasion of Ukraine, and its determination to provide talking points for useful idiots, are both reprehensible. And there hasn’t been overt moderation, merely some pulling up of the idiocy.

If his opinions weren't contentious others wouldn't be contending them.

It's his site, he can do what he likes with it.

There's a MOD team, and editor is, in truth pretty good about separating his personal interactions from modding decisions (in comparison to what I'd be like, for example...).

There's always beef, and not everyone gets it right all the time, and there's a feedback forum if you aren't happy with decisions that you see.

It's his party and he'll cry if he wants to.

 

[Rob Ray]

I can never decide whether whinging about admin bias on Urban is a venerable tradition or just tedious brinkmanship. Either way it's not what it used to be (yer no Meanwhile at the Bar).

 

[Silas Loom]

Some of us have posted on the boards long enough to remember when these forums weren’t cheerleading for NATO

Twenty years ago, anti-war and anti-NATO politics were concerned with Iraq. Only a tiny minority of people who opposed that war think that the situation in Ukraine is comparable.

 

[existentialist]

I see the Russian people are voting for their president today, given the last two British prime ministers have been selected by Tory members and Tory MPs respectively there’s a good case to say Russia is more democratic than the UK

I'm not sure it wouldn't be stretching the bounds of credulity to suspect that Russia might well have brought a fair bit of its "democratic" approach to more than one UK political decision in the last decade

 

[brogdale]

If the officer class can’t tell the difference between mods, moderators and the MOD we’re definitely fucked when Russia decides to annex Kent.

Eh?
Surely Putin knows the mines have all closed and Shakhtar Dover are bottom of the (Vanarama) National League (South)?

 

[ska invita]

40+ years ago....



Its almost as if the imperial competition between the USA and Russia started before 2022

 

[ska invita]

Particularly stupid to say that just after the principal Russian opposition leader has been murdered by Putin’s thugs.

Absolutely - Consolidated Authoritarian Regime is a good phrase, but it slightly undermines the extent of the killing and imprisonment involved



UK elections are basically fair in the possibility to stand and in the way the actual vote takes place and is counted, the difference here is that the system is sown up by a class of people which is a much more subtle form of consolidation.... but that's what you get in a country whose corruption has been sophisticatedly and seamlessly integrated into every institution over centuries.

*no idea who Freedom House are but the analysis of Russian democracy is fundamentally correct IMO

 

[two sheds]

Say what you will but considering past posting history and this and that, I did have the impression that Elpenor wasn't being 100% serious .

 

[JimW]

Going to be some tense hours in the Kremlin while they wait for the results.
The kitchen staff usually have a sweepstakes on the size of the majority they'll have the brass neck to claim.

 

[Pickman's model]

If the editor’s opinions were in any way contentious, you might have a point. But the general consensus in the country and on the board is that the Russian state’s invasion of Ukraine, and its determination to provide talking points for useful idiots, are both reprehensible. And there hasn’t been overt moderation, merely some pulling up of the idiocy.

from my pov the useful idiots are people who repeat ad nauseam the same articles of faith, apparently founded on the belief that people being war criminals will necessarily get their comeuppance in the end. the reality for the people of ukraine - setting aside the people of russia for the time being - is that win, lose or draw their future is bleak. not bleak simply because of the physical and mental effects of the war, but also because the conflict has provided excellent cover for the endemic corruption of the administration in the same way that the covid pandemic provided great avenues for corruption in this country. in addition, the vast sums of money flowing into ukraine to allow its government to continue will in many cases have to be paid back with interest of an eye-watering 45%. simply put, as i have argued on another thread, today is probably as good as it gets for ukraine for a very long time.

but there is, i submit, not going to be any reckoning with russia in any likely scenario beyond what seized russian assets can allow. there will be no unconditional russian surrender. there will be no reparations agreed at some international peace conference. there will be on the one hand an impoverished and broken ukraine almost certainly without territory east of the dniepro or crimea and on the other a battered but not broken russia. this could of course change if western forces are despatched to the conflict, but to do that would undoubtedly have implications for other conflict zones, notably the middle east and south china sea.

the greater problem, i feel, is the way that this war is affecting everyone from tierra del fuego to kamchatka - namely, in the divisions resulting from the conflict which affect areas in which all countries have a stake - the climate emergency. prior to the war there was much cooperation in climate science, cooperation which is really unlikely to be resumed any time soon. for me, in some ways this war, the ferment in the united states, the competition in the south china sea, the episodic warfare between china and india, comes down to competition for resources at a time when statesmanship is needed. this is how it ends, through stupid wars which will resolve nothing but delay concerted action on the climate emergency past the point where any reasonable environment can be assured in the future, where mass extinctions take place not only on land but in the seas, where fuck knows what emerges from the permafrost alongside the methane seeping from it.

however this ends in ukraine it ends badly. but it has created a greater alliance in the enlarged nato - which, unlike the warsaw pact, has already taken part in wars in asia, africa and europe. even if peace - or just a cessation of violence - is achieved between ukraine and russia, there is no way, i feel, that nato will be stood down. i'm sure the alliance will prove its worth in another conflict, though this may be some thousands of miles east of odessa.

 

[Pickman's model]

Going to be some tense hours in the Kremlin while they wait for the results.
The kitchen staff usually have a sweepstakes on the size of the majority they'll have the brass neck to claim.

presumably won in the past by putin's pa

 

[Pickman's model]

Absolutely - Consolidated Authoritarian Regime is a good phrase, but it slightly undermines the extent of the killing and imprisonment involved

View attachment 415964

UK elections are basically fair in the possibility to stand and in the way the actual vote takes place and is counted, the difference here is that the system is sown up by a class of people which is a much more subtle form of consolidation.... but that's what you get in a country whose corruption has been sophisticatedly and seamlessly integrated into every institution over centuries.

*no idea who Freedom House are but the analysis of Russian democracy is fundamentally correct IMO

so uk elections are fair not fair. right.

 

[emanymton]

Twenty years ago, anti-war and anti-NATO politics were concerned with Iraq. Only a tiny minority of people who opposed that war think that the situation in Ukraine is comparable.

It's almost like some people think an imperialist invasion of another country is just a bad thing, even if it is not American doing it for a change.

 

[emanymton]

It's his site, he can do what he likes with it.

There's a MOD team, and editor is, in truth pretty good about separating his personal interactions from modding decisions (in comparison to what I'd be like, for example...).

There's always beef, and not everyone gets it right all the time, and there's a feedback forum if you aren't happy with decisions that you see.

Also probably better the mods are open about their biases rather than claiming to be neutral, because in most cases they can't be.

Anyway why are we replying to disco's sockpupet?

 

[Pickman's model]

Twenty years ago, anti-war and anti-NATO politics were concerned with Iraq. Only a tiny minority of people who opposed that war think that the situation in Ukraine is comparable.

how swiftly afghanistan and the rather greater nato presence there is forgotten. not to mention kosovo. of course the situation in ukraine is comparable - whether or not only a tiny minority of people who opposed iraq believe it.

 

[Pickman's model]

It's his site, he can do what he likes with it.

There's a MOD team, and editor is, in truth pretty good about separating his personal interactions from modding decisions (in comparison to what I'd be like, for example...).

There's always beef, and not everyone gets it right all the time, and there's a feedback forum if you aren't happy with decisions that you see.

we've seen the MOD team in action on this thread, and it'd be nice to see the mod team doing its bit too.

 

[Bahnhof Strasse]

As the polls open for three days of voting, in a devastating blow to those UK constituencies that like to compete to be the first to return a result on election night, it seems the results are in already...

• Putin will get 82% of the votes;
• Kharitonov (Communist Party of the Russian Federation) - 6%;
• Davankov (New People party) - 6%;
• Slutsky (LDPR) - 5%.

71% of Russians who are eligible to vote, will cast their votes. Only 1% of voters will spoil the ballots.


Well done everyone.