Ukraine and the Russian invasion, 2022-24

[Pickman's model]

Have you heard of the nuremburg trials and their conclusion that obeying orders wasn't a defence?

 

[Pickman's model]

I read it as him being solely responsible for thousands of deaths, which doesn't mean other individuals aren't responsible for some of those as well. But I think you are being a pedant and over analysing a single quickly written post.

You think what you like. I'm sure editor is grateful for your white knighting on his behalf, you're playing a poor hand as well as you can but it's still a poor hand.

 

[Artaxerxes]

Have you heard of the nuremburg trials and their conclusion that obeying orders wasn't a defence?

Of course I have but I'm not absolving anyone of anything and I'm sure Ed isn't either. Prosecute every fucker murdering civilians and invading a country but Putin is there giving the orders so he needs to be considered responsible for instigating the fucking war. The nature of a dictatorship means he rules by fear, the people under him can stop it and indeed many of the soldiers did outright refuse to obey orders as the Russian constitution forbids conscription outside of Russia unless "at war" and a special operation doesn't count.

 

[Pickman's model]

Of course I have but I'm not absolving anyone of anything and I'm sure Ed isn't either. Prosecute every fucker murdering civilians and invading a country but Putin is there giving the orders so he needs to be considered responsible for instigating the fucking war. The nature of a dictatorship means he rules by fear, the people under him can stop it and indeed many of the soldiers did outright refuse to obey orders as the Russian constitution forbids conscription outside of Russia unless "at war" and a special operation doesn't count.

Let's not get bogged down in constitutions, if they were worth anything China would be one of the freest countries in the world. But editor said nothing in the post I quoted about starting the war. He said he's solely responsible for the deaths. Frankly I don't think he's solely responsible for either. At the least the other members of the Russian government, general staff and the wagner leaders bear responsibility for the deaths - I'd cast the net wider myself, but there you go

 

[Artaxerxes]

Let's not get bogged down in constitutions, if they were worth anything China would be one of the freest countries in the world. But editor said nothing in the post I quoted about starting the war. He said he's solely responsible for the deaths. Frankly I don't think he's solely responsible for either. At the least the other members of the Russian government, general staff and the wagner leaders bear responsibility for the deaths - I'd cast the net wider myself, but there you go

It’s a dictatorship, he’s the boss. While others do the deeds he’s the one in charge and making demands

 

[Pickman's model]

It’s a dictatorship, he’s the boss. While others do the deeds he’s the one in charge and making demands

Yes. But he's not solely responsible is he? Adolf Hitler was famously something of a dictator but the United nations managed to find a load of other nazis shared the blame

 

[LDC]

I wonder if individual Russian soldiers get arrested can we look forward to TopCat denying their complicity and/or guilt in war crimes as well with some 'it's all untrustworthy propaganda' dismissal?

Denying war crimes, forcible deportation of kids, and genocide charges is a great look for the left, wins people right over on the picket lines and in community centres.

 

[Pickman's model]

I wonder if individual Russian soldiers get arrested can we look forward to TopCat denying their complicity and/or guilt in war crimes as well with some 'it's all untrustworthy propaganda' dismissal?

It'd probably be better to wait until they're convicted before declaring their guilt as we all know an arrest has no bearing on guilt. Individual Russian soldiers have been tried and convicted of war crimes in Ukraine, have you seen TopCat deny their guilt or complicity?

 

[Artaxerxes]

Yes. But he's not solely responsible is he? Adolf Hitler was famously something of a dictator but the United nations managed to find a load of other nazis shared the blame

What you’re looking at is culpability, Putin is to blame for the mess but others are to blame for their actions in enacting his orders.

 

[Pickman's model]

What you’re looking at is culpability, Putin is to blame for the mess but others are to blame for their actions in enacting his orders.

But editor said quite clearly putin iho bears sole responsibility for the deaths in Ukraine (the deaths of thousands of men women and children). While it's really good of you to come out and bat for him to the best of your ability, you're defending something it's clear your heart's not really in.

 

[kabbes]

TopCat , I would also like to know how you square your responses with this:

…evidence is for the court which hasn't sat yet obviously, but you think there's not enough to issue a warrant even?

And the warrant is for Ukrainian children being forcibly deported, of which there is plenty of first hand testimony and NGO investigations showing that this has happened.

Why does it matter what the US think or don’t think about this? If the US denied the first-hand testimony and NGO investigations on this, would you then think the warrant was valid? The fact is that it is not the US that has issued this warrant; in fact, the US doesn’t particularly even endorse the body that has issued it. So why bring the US into it at all?

Do you think that the first-hand testimony and NGO investigations, which all show that Ukrainian children have been forcibly deported, is not enough to issue a warrant? If not, what else would it take to convince you that a warrant was justified?

 

[petee]

I'm on the side of the civilians being killed, maimed and bombed out of their homes, the women and girls being raped, the old people being left for dead, the hapless, inexperienced soldiers being thrown into a meat grinder battlefield, and all those suffering poverty and misery because of Putin's war.

exactly. this obscenity is being portrayed by rightists, and triangulating leftists who have no proletarian understanding, as a dispute between two nation states or, more insultingly, as a "proxy war". it isn't. it's an ideologically driven invasion by one nation state against a neighboring population. putin had no motivation except chest-thumping. that the people in Ukraine would rally 'round the flag in their own defense is no surprise and I'm going to claim that in the absence of this invasion few to none of them would be walking around wauling "look at me, I'm ukrainian."

 

[TopCat]

exactly. this obscenity is being portrayed by rightists, and triangulating leftists who have no proletarian understanding, as a dispute between two nation states or, more insultingly, as a "proxy war". it isn't. it's an ideologically driven invasion by one nation state against a neighboring population. putin had no motivation except chest-thumping. that the people in Ukraine would rally 'round the flag in their own defense is no surprise and I'm going to claim that in the absence of this invasion few to none of them would be walking around wauling "look at me, I'm ukrainian."

The No proletarian understanding bit nailed me.

 

[tim]

I think all wars are crimes in essence. To kill is abhorrent. To side with the US though just shows a moral bankruptcy which I find repugnant.

Siding with the USA by supporting the call for Putin to be tried by a court whose jurisdiction the USA doesn't recognise.

 

[tim]

It's a bit difficult to negotiate with Putin given his record on such things.
Anyway, I've already made my position crystal clear.

That is what is always said until negotiations start, which they will do at some stage.

 

[Kevbad the Bad]

That is what is always said until negotiations start, which they will do at some stage.

But meaningful negotiations will probably not start until both sides realise that one or other side has won or is going to win.

 

[TopCat]

Siding with the USA by supporting the call for Putin to be tried by a court whose jurisdiction the USA doesn't recognise.

Whilst calling for more US weapons.

 

[WouldBe]

No it’s not at all. If you lay down with dogs you get fleas. To regard the US as a force for good in this conflict is insane.

Treat the dogs and that doesn't happen.

 

[LDC]

Whilst calling for more US weapons.

Just for clarity is the the US (and other country's) weapons being supplied that you object to, or the Ukrainians resisting the invasion and occupation full stop? Like you'd be OK with the later if they didn't get the former? Or you just think they shouldn't have resisted the invasion, but then resisted once occupied? Or maybe just done nothing at all against Russia?

And what do you think about people outside Ukraine resisting Russia and its war effort without US or other back-up?

Can you give some reply that explains your position rather than endlessly posting half sentences?

 

[editor]

Just for clarity is the the US (and other country's) weapons being supplied that you object to, or the Ukrainians resisting the invasion and occupation full stop? Like you'd be OK with the later if they didn't get the former? Or you just think they shouldn't have resisted the invasion, but then resisted once occupied? Or maybe just done nothing at all against Russia?

And what do you think about people outside Ukraine resisting Russia and its war effort without US or other back-up?

Can you give some reply that explains your position rather than endlessly posting half sentences?

Good luck getting a straight answer.

 

[Pickman's model]

Just for clarity is the the US (and other country's) weapons being supplied that you object to, or the Ukrainians resisting the invasion and occupation full stop? Like you'd be OK with the later if they didn't get the former? Or you just think they shouldn't have resisted the invasion, but then resisted once occupied? Or maybe just done nothing at all against Russia?

And what do you think about people outside Ukraine resisting Russia and its war effort without US or other back-up?

Can you give some reply that explains your position rather than endlessly posting half sentences?

This is one of those posts that demands a one word answer. Or, if TopCat is feeling generous, two, maybe foxtrot oscar. There's just too many questions there. Do you think a post with so many questions isn't a little all over the place?

 

[Yossarian]

War criminal visits crime scene

Putin visits Russian-occupied Mariupol in Ukraine

Vladimir Putin, who flew to Mariupol by helicopter, drove around city and stopped to talk to residents, TASS reports.

www.aljazeera.com

 

[LDC]

This is one of those posts that demands a one word answer. Or, if TopCat is feeling generous, two, maybe foxtrot oscar. There's just too many questions there. Do you think a post with so many questions isn't a little all over the place?

Oh look, white knighting for TopCat you'd call that wouldn't you going by your earlier post? Hoist by your own pedantic petard.

You're right though, he can't seem to answer a single question properly, a few in a row (even easy ones) is clearly not going to get a response from him.

 

[Dogsauce]

War criminal visits crime scene

Putin visits Russian-occupied Mariupol in Ukraine

Vladimir Putin, who flew to Mariupol by helicopter, drove around city and stopped to talk to residents, TASS reports.

www.aljazeera.com

Suspected of being a lookalike, not even that convincing.

 

[brogdale]

Suspected of being a lookalike, not even that convincing.

Clifton James?

 

[two sheds]

The number of fatal diseases he's had over the last year you wouldn't expect him to look quite the same.

 

[savoloysam]

Nuclear attack coming

Emergency alert system to send messages to all UK phones

The new emergency alert system will be used to warn people about events such as extreme weather

www.independent.co.uk

 

[brogdale]

Nuclear attack coming

Emergency alert system to send messages to all UK phones

The new emergency alert system will be used to warn people about events such as extreme weather

www.independent.co.uk

Yes, 4 minute warning redux cast as flood notice.

Easy to disable under notifications.

 

[Dogsauce]

They already do that, don’t they? Also works internationally, I got a text warning of extreme weather when I was in Portugal at Christmas.

I also get occasional messages about power cuts in a city I haven’t lived in for seven years, but guess that must be something I signed up for in the small print with a previous supplier.

 

[Pickman's model]

Oh look, white knighting for TopCat you'd call that wouldn't you going by your earlier post? Hoist by your own pedantic petard.

You're right though, he can't seem to answer a single question properly, a few in a row (even easy ones) is clearly not going to get a response from him

No, I wouldn't call it white knighting. I'm not taking issue with your desire to elicit a response from TopCat, I'm saying you're going about it a stupid way. If you have to ask so many questions you reduce your chances of getting the information you desire.

Oh, and you show how you use pedantic as an insult rather than a description - if I was white knighting I'd be hoist by my hypocritical rather than pedantic petard.