SpackleFrog
Smash showy bell-bottom pants and sporty haircuts
We could.
Ukraine and the Russian invasion, 2022-24
- Thread starter kebabking
- Start date
We could.
SpackleFrog
Smash showy bell-bottom pants and sporty haircuts
Save the class talk for the future. A familiar line!
Look, you're saying there's nothing we can do about any of it. I completely disagree but if that's what you're saying, what does it matter what I'm saying?
I didn't criticise the provision of military aid. I just asked if anyone thought it would help the Ukrainian army stop the invasion, or just prolong the conflict. And nobody seems to think it will so I think I'm probably right to say it won't stop the invasion and will only prolong the conflict.
The39thStep
Urban critical thinker
Ukrainian bloke who works at the bakery just said to me in Portuguese ‘Thank you Boris Johnson ‘
Raheem
Well-Known Member
Maybe you should lose weight and comb your hair.
SpackleFrog
Smash showy bell-bottom pants and sporty haircuts
This article gives some background.
‘Everyone knows they’re lying’ How Marina Ovsyannikova rebelled against Russian state television — Meduza
During a live broadcast on Monday evening, March 14, on Channel One Russian state television, a station employee named Marina Ovsyannikova ran out on stage behind the news anchor, unfurled an antiwar sign, and shouted antiwar slogans. Ovsyannikova managed just a few seconds on the air before the...meduza.io
Thanks, very interesting. I had read that some govt employees were resigning over the war so its interesting to read about what it's like to work in these news stations and that some are/have resigned, even if many are scared to. The bit about trying to get male relatives out of the country to avoid the draft seems significant.
elbows
Well-Known Member
No but he did call on Biden to be the leader not just of the USA but of the world, by being the leader of peace. By closing the skies or at least supplying planes and weapons.
I've now seen the graphic images I mentioned in previous post, part of a 'close the skies' propaganda video that was shown, because that bit still features in youtube streaming of the event by UK media on their youtube channels. I'm mostly mentioning it so that nobody accidentally sees something they didnt want to see, as there are images of bodies being thrown into mass graves, badly injured children and dead children.
steeplejack
trapped lbw for a duck
demonstrably the opposition to Putin is numerically insignificant, politically incoherent, with it's ranks being dminished daily by people leaving the country and people either being in jail or the subjects of a criminal case.
Equally demonstrably, in addition to the extraordinary resistance shown by the Ukrainian military and civil defence, the atrocious logistics & dubious motivation of the Russian army, drones from Turkey, anti-tank missiles from various countries, and abandoned Russian kit have helped the Ukrainians defend their country successfully. Moreover (whether peace comes in the next few days or not) it has forced the Russians to engage seriously with talks aimed at ending the conflict.
I'm not sure why people are arguing one or other is more likely to bring down Putin. Both could bring him down, but most likely neither will. You think Putin cares about popular legitimacy or what people think of him? He is surrounded, still, by oligarchs, siloviki, and his church. As long as that pyramid is intact he's not going anywhere.
Equally demonstrably, in addition to the extraordinary resistance shown by the Ukrainian military and civil defence, the atrocious logistics & dubious motivation of the Russian army, drones from Turkey, anti-tank missiles from various countries, and abandoned Russian kit have helped the Ukrainians defend their country successfully. Moreover (whether peace comes in the next few days or not) it has forced the Russians to engage seriously with talks aimed at ending the conflict.
I'm not sure why people are arguing one or other is more likely to bring down Putin. Both could bring him down, but most likely neither will. You think Putin cares about popular legitimacy or what people think of him? He is surrounded, still, by oligarchs, siloviki, and his church. As long as that pyramid is intact he's not going anywhere.
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bimble
floofy
A full transcript of Putin's speech today:
kremlin.ru
It is actually a really interesting read. I think it gives an insight into where he's coming from. I don't see any signs of him looking for a way to back down in the immediate future, at all. Comes cross as cornered but proud and committed to forging ahead with the great battle against not Ukraine so much as The West.
Совещание о мерах социально-экономической поддержки регионов
Глава государства в режиме видеоконференции провёл совещание о мерах социально-экономической поддержки субъектов Российской Федерации.
kremlin.ru
RainbowTown
Well-Known Member
I have viewed those images too. Not pleasant.
existentialist
Tired and unemotional
Well, I think that's a very one-sided viewpoint, as far as the military aid is concerned. I can't help but get the feeling you're kind of wanting to say we shouldn't help Ukraine, without actually saying so. Because, from what I can see, not supplying that aid just leaves Ukraine twisting in the wind, with no chance whatsoever of tempering the Russian attack. As someone else pointed upthread, war isn't binary.
steveseagull
Well-Known Member
Cracking article below about how the Russians were chased out of Voznesensk by regular army and locals (Wall Street Journal)
FabricLiveBaby!
Live Baby Fabric!
A full transcript of Putin's speech today:
It is actually a really interesting read. I think it gives an insight into where he's coming from. I don't see any signs of him looking for a way to back down in the immediate future, at all. Comes cross as cornered but proud and committed to forging ahead with the great battle against not Ukraine so much as The West.Совещание о мерах социально-экономической поддержки регионов
Глава государства в режиме видеоконференции провёл совещание о мерах социально-экономической поддержки субъектов Российской Федерации.
Gulags are coming back for ordinary Russians.
For anyone who doesn't know what 5th column meant under Stalinism, I would look it up asap.
The talk about spitting out flies, too.
Putin's grandad was a personal chef for Lenin and Stalin, and Putin is said to particularly idolize Stalin.
Time for educated Russians to GTFO NOW.
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FabricLiveBaby!
Live Baby Fabric!
Video translation.
(Actual fascism)
Dystopiary
putting up a hook to hang my hopes upon
A theatre's been bombed in Mariupol. Looks like there were people inside. 
cupid_stunt
Merry fecking Christmas.
I am not twisting what you saying, you seem all over the place, and nothing is particularly clear about what you actually want/think.
You did say, 'I think the best chance of ending the war is probably mass protest in Russia itself', and [to me] 'you have given up on even believing that it is possible for workers to organise to stop wars', now it appears you don't think that's likely to end the war.
You bang on about providing weapons will only prolong the war, implying you are against that, whilst also saying 'time is not on Russia's side because the longer war drags on the more potential for anger at the war to grow in Russia though right?', which is a good reason for supplying the weapons.
steveseagull
Well-Known Member
That video suggests he is partly lining up his Oligarchs to take the blame for his disastrous war.
FabricLiveBaby!
Live Baby Fabric!
Probably also going to the gulags...
Pickman's model
Starry Wisdom
what's the point in having oligarchs if you can't throw them to the wolves?
Raheem
Well-Known Member
...to take the blame for his perfectly planned and executed special operation.
Pickman's model
Starry Wisdom
grandfather, not father: vp's dad born in 1911. tbh there's something unusual about someone who cooked for both lenin and stalin and lived to a ripe auld age
elbows
Well-Known Member
But also a good idea to look up the extent to which rhetoric about the fifth column has been used very heavily and crudely for years under Putin already.
For example this article from 2015:
Putin’s enemy within: Demonising the “fifth column”
In Putin's Russia, anyone who opposes the Kremlin is treated as a threat, while those who commit political murder and violent attacks are left alone.
ecfr.eu
existentialist
Tired and unemotional
Yeah, but were they proper workers? Because if not, it doesn't count.
FabricLiveBaby!
Live Baby Fabric!
Yes, my mistake.
existentialist
Tired and unemotional
Full of refugees, apparently. Although there seems already to be some suggestion that Russia is saying that it was some kind of nest of neo-Nazis.A theatre's been bombed in Mariupol. Looks like there were people inside.
Dystopiary
putting up a hook to hang my hopes upon
There's quite a bit on this incident as yet unverified so didn't want to say much more outside the speculation thread, but they've been doing this haven't they, spinning the blame of their attacks on civilians.
AnnO'Neemus
Is so vanilla
The First Ukrainian Tractor Brigade have already scored some minor victories, captured enemy equipment. Deserve medals all round.
editor
hiraethified
Cid
Proper break this time
Well that's fucking terrifying.
Do any Russian speakers here have a good enough grasp of the language/history to understand the nuance of terms used?
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