existentialist
Tired and unemotional
I fear that there will be more where that came from. "Bestial" seems altogether too kind a description.
Ukraine and the Russian invasion, 2022-24
- Thread starter kebabking
- Start date
Artaxerxes
Look out, he's got a gnu!
Standard Russian tactics of murder until surrender (then murder more) they've given up on hoping for quick win any other way.
Dystopiary
putting up a hook to hang my hopes upon
It seems like that Russian news presenter was fined for the video she made, not the protest itself.
dilute micro
esse quam videri
Interesting talk
A380
How do I change this 'custom title' thing then?
ENTSO-E, the European organisation for national electricity transmission system operators (TSOs - think National Grid in the UK) have announced that they have synchronised Ukraine's grid to the main European synchronous area - basically it means its now much easier to send energy into Ukraine.
SpackleFrog
Smash showy bell-bottom pants and sporty haircuts
No, I do think we should help Ukraine. I just wonder what that help should look like. Where I am there is a local group that has been set up to raise money/resources to Ukrainian trade unions and I'm involved in that. I'll freely admit I feel more comfortable doing that than donating to the Ukranian army or calling for Western military support.
I'm assuming (perhaps wrongly) that we will either see Russia attempt to occupy Ukraine, in which case there will be a resistance to that that will need support, or Russia will be forced to withdraw because of domestic pressures and the impact of sanctions/isolation.
Of course we should help Ukraine. But we doesn't mean Western states, at least it doesn't to me.
existentialist
Tired and unemotional
Well, with my cynical hat on, I admire your desire to see that the cutlery is properly polished and arranged nicely. Shame about all the bits of flaming ceiling crashing down and setting fire to the beautifully-sculpted napkins.
Christ on a bike, FFS
ETA: "we". So, not Western states. Presumably, these much-vaunted "workers". I imagine "workers" are more immune to Russian artillery than, say, soldiers are, right?
SpackleFrog
Smash showy bell-bottom pants and sporty haircuts
Possible and likely do not mean the same thing. I don't have as clear an assessment of how the anti-war movement is going as I would like, but I do think there are signs of growing anger which you don't appear to acknowledge.
I will concede this is true - more weapons for Ukraine mean the fighting lasts longer, the longer the fighting goes on, the more anger within Russia grows, particularly as the Russian body count increases. So if we're saying that the aim of sending weapons is to prolong the fighting which will wear out Russia and increase opposition to Putin, then I accept the logic of that. But it means a lot more deaths, of Ukrainian civilians as well as Russian soldiers.
SpackleFrog
Smash showy bell-bottom pants and sporty haircuts
Well, with my cynical hat on, I admire your desire to see that the cutlery is properly polished and arranged nicely. Shame about all the bits of flaming ceiling crashing down and setting fire to the beautifully-sculpted napkins.
Christ on a bike, FFS
ETA: "we". So, not Western states. Presumably, these much-vaunted "workers". I imagine "workers" are more immune to Russian artillery than, say, soldiers are, right?
Well, if we've got cynical hats on, I understand your desire for somebody to do something to save Ukrainians from this invasion. Really, I do. I'm just not convinced it's going to happen.
The same powers that are supplying weaponry are refusing to sanction Gazprombank because they want to keep buying gas from Russia, which is presumably helping to finance the invasion, in case that hasn't been mentioned. Gazprombank: The Big Russian Lender That Dodged Western Sanctions
I just can't see how real help is coming from that direction, honestly.
existentialist
Tired and unemotional
Enough. This is just turning into a stupid derail. I'm talking to you in English, and you seem to be listening in some kind of misty-eyed adolescent idealistic fantasy. I'm done.
A380
How do I change this 'custom title' thing then?
You’ve just got to really really wish hard enough in ‘The Workers’ and absolutely everything will turn out lovely.
existentialist
Tired and unemotional
Of interest.
Direct link to his PDF. if you're interested in the core principles of urban warfare: https://img1.wsimg.com/blobby/go/a3...-507be641e336/Mini_Manual_Spencerv2.5pptx.pdf
Direct link to his PDF. if you're interested in the core principles of urban warfare: https://img1.wsimg.com/blobby/go/a3...-507be641e336/Mini_Manual_Spencerv2.5pptx.pdf
SpackleFrog
Smash showy bell-bottom pants and sporty haircuts
Sorry, how is that a derail? All I'm saying is that the states supplying weapons to Ukraine are also continuing to buy gas from Russia.
Is that not important to you?
Humberto
Relax
I think AnnO'Neemus said something like they can't legally do anything else??
elbows
Well-Known Member
I've had about enough of these attempts to narrow down what is considered acceptable to discuss on this thread to an absurd degree. I can appreciate why that happened with a poster that has now been banned from this thread, and that was not a safe example for me to build this complaint upon without getting associated with their shit. But I'm quite keen not to see the phenomenon and the accusations that accompany it repeated more broadly, especially since in times of war there is a tendency for more people than normal to fully leap on board a narrower than normal stance and to more actively police posters who stray from that line. Wars raise uncomfortable questions and things are easily polarised. I dont want uncomfortable, challenging aspects to be brushed under the carpet, including ones I dont actually happen to agree with myself.
This is in no way a demand that you agree with posters, stances and angles that you dont really agree with, or that you should not challenge them. But it is an appeal for you not to characterise these posters and their points in quite the way you have been tending to on this thread so far. Its unsettling to me because you arent coming across on this thread in the way I'm used to thinking of you in other threads at all. Maybe that says more about me than you, and I do not intend to keep going on about this, but I thought I'd just raise this now with the hope that I can then move on.
I suppose I'm especially unsettled because I think I'm seeing more dogma than pragmatism at work here, in contrast to what we were talking about earlier.
edit - let me put it this way. There is a fake, hollow version of pragmatism that focusses mostly on smearing all inconvenient angles and possibilities as being naive, immature dogma based stuff entirely void of any possible merit, not worthy of serious discussion. I am not entirely allergic to such lines of attack, but I certainly dont like it when such attacks become the default, made using rather broad brush strokes. Too much risk that the resulting 'pragmatism' is built on a rigged game, since too many of the legitimate ingredients that should go into a fair evaluation have been unfairly discarded at the earliest opportunity.
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xsunnysuex
Life is a horizontal fall.
This is just awful!
Raheem
Well-Known Member
It seems they were killed by a missile, rather than being shot. Not that that's not also awful.
xsunnysuex
Life is a horizontal fall.
Those poor people must be absolutely terrified.
A report from Mariupol. There doesn't seem to be any confirmation yet of the number killed in bombing of the theatre.
www.theguardian.com
Mariupol: Russia accused of bombing theatre and swimming pool sheltering civilians
Ukraine authorities say hundreds of people were hiding in theatre and that convoy of cars leaving besieged city was also shelled
elbows
Well-Known Member
I note that the Panamanian authorities have revealed that these attacks happened during the war, but the dates of when the incidents actually happened have not been revealed. So I havent formed the view that these attacks are something that only just happened.
Panama says three ships hit by Russian missiles in Black Sea since start of Ukraine invasion
Three Panamanian-flagged ships have been hit by Russian missiles in the Black Sea since Russia's invasion of Ukraine last month, Panama's Maritime Authority said on Wednesday.
elbows
Well-Known Member
What usually happens to me when I try to think about these aspects is that my desire to see all invasions go very badly ends up trumping a lot of other considerations. But obviously some of the implications of that are very unpleasant and deadly.
In terms of the prospects of Ukraine thwarting the invasion, in the opening weeks I didnt allow myself to be optimistic about that. And theres been a lot of propaganda on that front, which forced me to wait quite a while before entertaining some possibilities more seriously. I'm still rather wary of claims as to the extent to which Putins ambitions have been permanently thwarted. But it does seem clear its been much harder for them than they anticipated, and there is significant pressure on many fronts. I'm not at all convinced the balance has comprehensively tipped in the other direction, fully in Ukraines favour, but it does seem to have at least reached the sort of balance that encouraged more serious negotiations.
Raheem
Well-Known Member
I think the nature of the conflict is how long can Russia keep going versus how long can Ukraine hold out. So prolonging the conflict is the route to stopping the invasion. Or, to put it another way, the choice is between supporting the invasion or supporting the resistance.
SpackleFrog
Smash showy bell-bottom pants and sporty haircuts
Yeah, that makes sense. It certainly seems to me that Putin didn't expect such fierce resistance, and I think possibly he wrongly expected some Ukrainians to be sympathetic to the Russian invasion.
I think probably I've been through a similar process to you, in that I initially expected some fierce fighting but for the country to be occupied within weeks. Clearly that's not happening, it's just not been possible for Russia to do that easily and that's a combination of determination, high quality weapons and preparation on the part of Ukraine and poor planning/miscalculation from Putin. But now I can see that, I'm starting to worry that there will be an entrenched war for months to come potentially, not least because Putin is finished if he can't present the invasion as a success.
The news tonight has been horrendous, and I'm very worried that what is happening in Mariupol will be happening throughout the country for a long time to come.
SpackleFrog
Smash showy bell-bottom pants and sporty haircuts
I agree that that is the nature of the conflict, but I don't accept that prolonging the conflict is the only way to stop the invasion. And I think if that's what you're arguing (which I can understand) there needs to be an acknowledgement that the scale of loss of life will be huge.
I don't think comparisons to Vietnam, Afghanistan and Iraq are an exaggeration, either in terms of how long this could drag on for or how many will die.
SpackleFrog
Smash showy bell-bottom pants and sporty haircuts
I missed this sorry. Your point has gone over my head to, what are you trying to say?
Raheem
Well-Known Member
No chance. Russia can keep this going for a few months at most, and perhaps only weeks. Vietnam and Afghanistan (twice) involved superpowers with the resources to sustain a war indefinitely. That's not the case here.
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