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Ukraine and the Russian invasion, 2022-24

This is nuts. Russian foreign ministry statement on the ukraine (press the translate button) . Its bonkers, it suggests definitely that they want regime change there at the very least.

But also it says all Russian embassy & consular staff are imminently to be withdrawn / evacuated from Ukraine.
 
Here we go, Putin's admission that he doesn't intend to stop with the rebel held areas.



No real surprise, except to those posters that believed he wasn't going to invade, bless their naïve gullibility.

This is going to be a massive initial land grab, and I'll be surprised it he stops there.

INTERACTIVE-Ukraine-Donbas-region-Feb.png





I wouldn't say people were "gullible".
More hopeful that Putin would not go into Ukraine.
Nothing wrong with that.

Also, he is actually gone into the area that they have been in for a few years. We will see if he goes further into Ukraine in the next few days
 
Depends what you mean by 'full on invasion' maybe. He could push west to Dnieper river and also take Kyiv and Dnipro and stop there, and that would cover a chunk including the border area with Belarus as well as then having better land access to Crimea, and then leave the rest. That would be pretty full on without taking the whole country?
He could of course do that and more but a full on grimy war with potentially no end on his own borders isn’t what I’m seeing at his aim here. I will likely be proved wrong but there you go .
 
This is nuts. Russian foreign ministry statement on the ukraine (press the translate button) . Its bonkers, it suggests definitely that they want regime change there at the very least.

But also it says all Russian embassy & consular staff are imminently to be withdrawn / evacuated from Ukraine.

2014 stung and i guess undoing it is near the top of the to do list - question is by hook or crook
 
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I wouldn't say people were "gullible".
More hopeful that Putin would not go into Ukraine.
Nothing wrong with that.

Of course you wouldn't. :D

If people posted 'I hope he doesn't...' or 'I don't think he will...', fine, but when people go out of their way to state as fact that he wouldn't invade, based solely on the bullshit coming out from him, and ignoring the ever growing evidence suggesting the opposite, that is a sign of them being gullible.

Also, he is actually gone into the area that they have been in for a few years. We will see if he goes further into Ukraine in the next few days

He has already stated his intention to go further than the rebel held areas, and there's no evidence to contradict him on this occasion.
 
No new sanctions against the people that matter, just facilitators in the disputed region . It’s pathetic.
is that true of the EU's announcement too idk.
"sanctions includes all members of the lower house of the Russian parliament who voted in favour of the recognition of the breakaway regions, freezing any assets they have in the EU and banning them from travelling to the bloc."
 
Well obviously cupid_stunt you seem to have a better understanding than many of us here on Putin and what he will do next.
😁

Putin today said he did not want to recreate / restore the Russian Empire.

His military strategy has been this style for 20 + years in terms of disputed territories.
But plenty still think he will not push to occupy Ukraine. Mainly because it's a waste of money troops and time. It's not easy to occupy another country...long term. It drains funds and goes on and on. I dont believe Putin wants a long drawn out campaign whatever happens..

Russia is actually in a good position in terms of money etc so there is a chance sanctions wont cause the impact that the west thinks they might cause.

None of this is to say that I support Putin. (feel I need to have a disclaimer sometimes)
 
France has woken up to the fact that they have been treated like mugs.

France has accused Vladimir Putin of failing to respect his country’s commitments to key international accords including the 2014 Minsk agreement. In a statement following the unanimous decision by the EU’s 27 member states to impose new sanctions on Russia, France’s foreign minister Jean-Yves Le Drian said the Russian president “no longer honours Russia’s signature”.

Referring to the separatist-held areas of Donetsk and Lugansk in Ukraine, Le Drian said: President Putin doesn’t honour his own commitments, because he stated publicly that the idea of a vote by the Duma resulting in recognition of the two republics... was not on the agenda.

The Minsk agreement was also Russia’s signature, Putin’s own, renewed at a meeting in Paris in December 2019.

Asked if French president Emmanuel Macron had been misled by Putin with false hopes of a breakthrough, Le Drian said the French leader “knows the methods, character and cynicism” of his Russian counterpart.

 
France has woken up to the fact that they have been treated like mugs.





The Minsk II agreement has NEVER been fulfilled by either side. The first agreement failed because both broke ceasefire.
Following the collapse of Minsk I, another agreement was decided upon February 2015 when Ukraine, Donetsk and Luhansk rebel forces and Russia brokered by France and Germany. The Minsk II agreements proposed 13 steps to end the conflict. Out of these 13 steps, steps like granting greater self-governance in the breakaway regions and more autonomy to Donetsk and Luhansk stand out. It also called for removal of foreign armies and weapons while giving full control of the state border to the government of Ukraine.

There were several reasons as to why the agreements did not work. The agreements were signed at a time when Ukraine’s army was depleted owing to the severe losses it suffered in the town of Debaltseve and lost the Donetsk International Airport to the rebels. He outlined one crucial point - Russia fails to understand that it is also a party to the Minsk Agreement as it backs the rebels with military and weapons support.

“The No. 1 thing is that Russia refuses to acknowledge that it is a party to the Minsk agreements, and that it has obligations under the Minsk agreements, which it has never fulfilled," Volker was quoted as saying by foreign policy.

Another challenge that Ukraine faces is internal hostility from its citizens if those agreements are followed. If Ukraine fully implements the measures mentioned in the Minsk agreements it would mean bowing down to Moscow. Allowing elections in Donbass means allowing Russian proxies in the Ukrainian parliament undermining Ukrainian sovereignty.

It also would anger Ukrainian citizens as hundreds if not thousands of Ukrainian servicemen have lost their lives in the crisis, according to Duncan Allan, a fellow at Chatham House. “The key political provisions are incompatible, in my opinion, with Ukraine’s existence as a sovereign country," Allan told Open Democracy.

Blinken chose to highlight earlier last month that Ukraine did pave the path for implementing some of the measures mentioned in the Minsk agreements, referring to former president Petro Poroshenko steps to allow for decentralization in 2015 but highlighted that Russia did nothing to keep promises. Ukraine would only allow for decentralization and give more powers to the regions if and when foreign troops - Russian forces - withdraw.

However, despite all that, Minsk agreements are what people believe can help restore peace. As Volker pointed out while speaking to Foreign Policy, “Everybody keeps clinging to the Minsk agreements because at least they say, with Russia’s signature attached, that they respect Ukraine’s sovereignty and territorial integrity. So, nobody wants to give that up."



Both countries needed to try.
Ukraine has spent 8 years refusing to deal with Russia. And Russia has continued to fund rebels.
There has been nothing in terms of autonomy for the peoples living in the disputed areas
Their lives have been dreadful. 800000 Russians live in those areas. 68000 have left to go back to Russia to stay until this is over.

If Ukraine sat down with Russia and agreed to autonomy for the 2 rebel states / newly named as republics that would be a positive development. Then you might just find that Russia would leave.
 
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The Minsk II agreement has NEVER been fulfilled by either side. The first agreement failed because both broke ceasefire.
Following the collapse of Minsk I, another agreement was decided upon February 2015 when Ukraine, Donetsk and Luhansk rebel forces and Russia brokered by France and Germany. The Minsk II agreements proposed 13 steps to end the conflict. Out of these 13 steps, steps like granting greater self-governance in the breakaway regions and more autonomy to Donetsk and Luhansk stand out. It also called for removal of foreign armies and weapons while giving full control of the state border to the government of Ukraine.

There were several reasons as to why the agreements did not work. The agreements were signed at a time when Ukraine’s army was depleted owing to the severe losses it suffered in the town of Debaltseve and lost the Donetsk International Airport to the rebels. He outlined one crucial point - Russia fails to understand that it is also a party to the Minsk Agreement as it backs the rebels with military and weapons support.

“The No. 1 thing is that Russia refuses to acknowledge that it is a party to the Minsk agreements, and that it has obligations under the Minsk agreements, which it has never fulfilled," Volker was quoted as saying by foreign policy.

Another challenge that Ukraine faces is internal hostility from its citizens if those agreements are followed. If Ukraine fully implements the measures mentioned in the Minsk agreements it would mean bowing down to Moscow. Allowing elections in Donbass means allowing Russian proxies in the Ukrainian parliament undermining Ukrainian sovereignty.

It also would anger Ukrainian citizens as hundreds if not thousands of Ukrainian servicemen have lost their lives in the crisis, according to Duncan Allan, a fellow at Chatham House. “The key political provisions are incompatible, in my opinion, with Ukraine’s existence as a sovereign country," Allan told Open Democracy.

Blinken chose to highlight earlier last month that Ukraine did pave the path for implementing some of the measures mentioned in the Minsk agreements, referring to former president Petro Poroshenko steps to allow for decentralization in 2015 but highlighted that Russia did nothing to keep promises. Ukraine would only allow for decentralization and give more powers to the regions if and when foreign troops - Russian forces - withdraw.

However, despite all that, Minsk agreements are what people believe can help restore peace. As Volker pointed out while speaking to Foreign Policy, “Everybody keeps clinging to the Minsk agreements because at least they say, with Russia’s signature attached, that they respect Ukraine’s sovereignty and territorial integrity. So, nobody wants to give that up."



Both countries needed to try.
Ukraine has spent 8 years refusing to deal with Russia. And Russia has continued to fund rebels.
There has been nothing in terms of autonomy for the peoples living in the disputed areas
Their lives have been dreadful. 800000 Russians live in those areas. 68000 have left to go back to Russia to stay until this is over.

If Ukraine sat down with Russia and agreed to autonomy for the 2 rebel states / newly named as republics that would be a posotive development. Then you might just find that Russia would leave.

That's a long copy & paste job, which should be in a quote, not sure what your point is, or what it has to do with my post that you quoted, perhaps you would care to explain?
 
That's a long copy & paste job, which should be in a quote, not sure what your point is, or what it has to do with my post that you quoted, perhaps you would care to explain?

Well the top part I felt needed pasting.
After the link is my actual post.
And you had posted about France and Macron discussing the failure of Minsk 2
.
 
Well the top part I felt needed pasting.
After the link is my actual post.
And you had posted about France and Macron discussing the failure of Minsk 2
.

Oh, I see you edited whilst I was replying, still not sure of your point, you seem very confused.

'800000 Russians live in those area' - the combined population of both the Donetsk & Luhansk regions, which Putin has made clear he wants to take over, is over 6m.
 
Putin is nuts, but I don't think it is at all possible for him to annex anything further than the Donbas and Luhansk region. Despite superior military strength it just isn't feasible. It is costly and would last years. His ability to annex the current regions is based more or less off the ethnic make-up of Ukraine itself.
Going outside that boundary would entail an official and very serious war, and if he was even to 'win', would rage on for long after against many Ukrainian militia and guerilla groups of various stripes.

I do think that Putin is quite influenced by internal nationalist Russian theorists and advisors of geo-politics, who have a long-term perspective of Russian interests in a longue duree and paranoid time-line. There is a definite element of mother Russia at play. Some of that is legitimately informed by the breakdown of the Soviet Union and the subsequent embarrassment of the post-Soviet period. It was the worst peace-time collapse of living standards in modern history, twice as intense as the Great Depression (60% contraction as opposed to 30% in the US at the time). Unfortunately, I think we are still seeing some of the effects of that downfall. And I think it is hard to argue today that the vast majority of former Soviet republics benefited from it, in comparison to what has come afterward. From the ashes of 'proletarian brotherhood', has risen severe nationalist resentments.

To what degree could this have been prevented, if Russia had been more integrated in to the global and European sphere of things, rather than letting them hit the wall in the 90's? I think it is a question worth answering.
 
Oh, I see you edited whilst I was replying, still not sure of your point, you seem very confused.

'800000 Russians live in those area' - the combined population of both the Donetsk & Luhansk regions, which Putin has made clear he wants to take over, is over 6m.

I edited for one mistake. Nothing else.

I think you didnt pick up on the fact that the Minsk agreement wanted autonomy for those 2 areas. Self governance.

And I do know the population figures. The fact is that both areas wanted to be independent of Ukraine.
 
Long thread, but has this been posted anywhere yet?
 
I don't personally think there is much point analysing Putin's intentions by relying on his statements. He'll say whatever suits him at any given moment. Which may or may not be what he means. Tactically he may change track whenever it suits him. Instead look at his actions, and that of his Soviet predecessors. Great Russian hegemony over the former Soviet/Tsarist empire. That's his aim. He can't achieve that quickly, but he can chip away at it. He might get carried away and go too far, cos he is a megalomaniac with no internal opposition worth talking about. Maybe even he doesn't know yet.
 
I don't personally think there is much point analysing Putin's intentions by relying on his statements. He'll say whatever suits him at any given moment. Which may or may not be what he means. Tactically he may change track whenever it suits him. Instead look at his actions, and that of his Soviet predecessors. Great Russian hegemony over the former Soviet/Tsarist empire. That's his aim. He can't achieve that quickly, but he can chip away at it. He might get carried away and go too far, cos he is a megalomaniac with no internal opposition worth talking about. Maybe even he doesn't know yet.

There's a lot of obvious disagreements here between folk, but yeah, I agree with a lot of this. Especially about his statements. He was a trained KGB officer and knows how to wage an information war better, and more confidently, than any other current leader on the world stage.

Despite some underlying political disagreements between people here, it's also why I don't like some of the tit for tat posts going on. I'm pretty sure 99% of people on urban here are not pro-war, or 'Putinist', but are all just trying to understand what the fuck is going on. And let's not pretend either that we are mostly arm-chair experts.
 
I edited for one mistake. Nothing else.

I skimmed read your post, got to the link at the bottom, clicked on that to read, there was nothing below that link at that point in time, then I quoted your post, and didn't see you had added several lines of text below the link, that's was a big omission from your original post, not what I would call 'one mistake'.

I've had enough of your games, so on ignore you go.
 
There's a lot of obvious disagreements here between folk, but yeah, I agree with a lot of this. Especially about his statements. He was a trained KGB officer and knows how to wage an information war better, and more confidently, than any other current leader on the world stage.

Despite some underlying political disagreements between people here, it's also why I don't like some of the tit for tat posts going on. I'm pretty sure 99% of people on urban here are not pro-war, or 'Putinist', but are all just trying to understand what the fuck is going on. And let's not pretend either that we are mostly arm-chair experts.

When he says things to western leaders, hidden from his home audience, I don't believe a word he says, and that position has been proven right so far, much to the amazement of both France & Germany.

When he holds a press conference, addressing his own people, as he did yesterday & again today, I take more notice, and assume he's being somewhat honest, otherwise he'll be left with egg on his face. amongst his own people.
 
I skimmed read your post, got to the link at the bottom, clicked on that to read, there was nothing below that link at that point in time, then I quoted your post, and didn't see you had added several lines of text below the link, that's was a big omission from your original post, not what I would call 'one mistake'.

I've had enough of your games, so on ignore you go.


😳

Ok.. I am on a phone so it's not exactly streamlined and I didnt actually notice your quote of my post. Until now.

Did not really think anything I posted was a problem but sorry if it upset you. I most definitely am not playing games.
Sorry you think that way about me
 
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