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Transphobes gunning hard for 'paedophilia' angle all of a sudden

Thing is as well, there was a slight difference in levels of privilege between disabled people, particularly inflexibly minded idiotic ones (who were already in camps long before the Nazis came to power) and cabaret performers. I know I’m not meant to say this but the far right counter-revolution we are living through is going to knee deep in dead idiots before drag queens are anywhere near a camp.

The relationships between queer people, disabled people and the Nazis is complicated. The nazis justified their persecution of queer people as a fight against the decadence of liberalism, they justified their persecution of the disabled by referencing liberal ideas.
 
I have no idea what Weimar-era sexologists may or may not have said on the subject of eugenics, I find it entirely plausible that people in the 1920s may well have had some views that seem unacceptable now, but unless you can find me anyone who says "I entirely agree with everything that Weimar sexologists said, including and perhaps especially on the subject of eugenics" I'm not really sure how much direct relevance it has to any kind of contemporary debates?
 
I'm not really sure how much direct relevance it has to any kind of contemporary debates?
I imagine the idea is that the sexologists were eugenicists in the same way that the Nazis were socialists. There's not really going to be a fruitful way of engaging with it.

Eugenics was considered mainstream until the 1930s, so it's unlikely that that anyone studying human sexuality would not have at least been influenced by eugenicists. Plus, I think the idea of planned pregnancy was considered a form of eugenics.

Perhaps the thing to do is is ask in what way did eugenics influence sexology in the WR, in the hope that this will shut the discussion down.
 
Thing is as well, there was a slight difference in levels of privilege between disabled people, particularly inflexibly minded idiotic ones (who were already in camps long before the Nazis came to power) and cabaret performers. I know I’m not meant to say this but the far right counter-revolution we are living through is going to knee deep in dead idiots before drag queens are anywhere near a camp.

The relationships between queer people, disabled people and the Nazis is complicated. The nazis justified their persecution of queer people as a fight against the decadence of liberalism, they justified their persecution of the disabled by referencing liberal ideas.
Jesus man, I actually thought this point in the conversation might have been a good opportunity for you to find some common ground with others, but no no you're still in this weird place. It's not good, you're better than this. Please disconnect from the whole thing, for a year. This tiny group, they aren't your enemy. Never were and never will be. Take care x
 
Jesus man, I actually thought this point in the conversation might have been a good opportunity for you to find some common ground with others, but no no you're still in this weird place. It's not good, you're better than this. Please disconnect from the whole thing, for a year. This tiny group, they aren't your enemy. Never were and never will be. Take care x

I think both sides are my enemy tbf, i think they’re both made of people who are privileged, who insist on expressing and defending disgusting views, who refuse to ever reflect on their own privilege, or their bigotry, and who’s selfishness has resulted in a lot of dead people. It is weird to me to be expected to be silent about the bigotry of those who see bigotry everywhere, and to be expected to give solidarity to those who’ve made it clear they’ll never give any solidarity to those whose lives are a million times shittier than theirs. Oh well, see you in the camps I guess
 
I think both sides are my enemy tbf, i think they’re both made of people who are privileged, who insist on expressing and defending disgusting views, who refuse to ever reflect on their own privilege, or their bigotry, and who’s selfishness has resulted in a lot of dead people. It is weird to me to be expected to be silent about the bigotry of those who see bigotry everywhere, and to be expected to give solidarity to those who’ve made it clear they’ll never give any solidarity to those whose lives are a million times shittier than theirs. Oh well, see you in the camps I guess

Describing someone's life as 'a million times shittier' than someone else's may not be quite the act of advocacy you think it is.
 
Has there been any refutation of ‘anti-gender ideology’ claim that Weimar sexologists were advocates of eugenics? I ask because a) it’s an allegation of a serious nature that’s often made against Trans advocates, b) it does tie in with some of the frankly gross views expressed on urban about ‘dragging the inflexibly minded finger painting idiots kicking and screaming’ (what an image), and c) the charge of eugenics is made by ‘both sides’ of this issue against each other

I know you're referring to posts I've made. Not once have I ever suggested eugenics, and it's disgusting that you would choose to mischaracterise my views in such a manner. Back the fuck off already.
 
I think both sides are my enemy tbf, i think they’re both made of people who are privileged, who insist on expressing and defending disgusting views, who refuse to ever reflect on their own privilege, or their bigotry, and who’s selfishness has resulted in a lot of dead people. It is weird to me to be expected to be silent about the bigotry of those who see bigotry everywhere, and to be expected to give solidarity to those who’ve made it clear they’ll never give any solidarity to those whose lives are a million times shittier than theirs. Oh well, see you in the camps I guess
I think you are obviously trying to take a stab at identity politics here, but being trans isn't "taking up a Liberal position on class". I get a lot of this stuff is done badly, but that's not a reason to drop the ball on a well funded attack on a minority by the rich. You're confusing two completely different issues here, but you're not the only one. Plenty people on urban do. We've had 6 years or so of people trying to explain this with none of the CHECK YOUR PRIVILEGE PROLE stuff that is seen elsewhere. Oh well, what more can we do?.
 
I see. One side has the right to speak, but not the other. Says rather a lot about you really.

If you feel strongly about it, get out from behind your daily mail, on your comfy chair and protest a bit.

The problem with these moon howling, right wing, conspiraloons that turn up on real life is that they believe that they have the backing of the silent majority

Their “silent majority” are just gum-bumping bored and angry keyboard warriors with little lives adding clicks and comments to the fire
 
Thought this was quite good on the GC/TERF question, from this interview:
I think that too often, trans people and our allies suggest that TERFs are not real feminists. That by virtue of their bigotry, and their participation in gender fascism, that their claims to care about women are lies. Gender critical feminists are feminists. They often have deep and organic roots within the radical wings of the women’s liberation movements of the 1970s, particularly within lesbian feminism. This means coming to terms with the fact that feminism is not, in fact, simply a synonym for “good politics.” Instead the women’s liberation movements were in themselves ideological battlefields, where millions of women (including some trans women) came together to figure out how to dismantle patriarchy and get free. Debates raged around sexuality, race, militancy, and capitalism, as well as biological essentialism and the participation of transsexual women. Feminism has always included the most vicious forms of white supremacy and middle class careerism as well as the most precious tools for total liberation. We cannot simply dismiss bigots like Janice Raymond, Mary Daly, Redstockings, and Adrienne Rich from the ranks of feminism. Rather, we need to understand building political unity and clarity as an always ongoing process. Our movements always face the danger of growing reactionary politics within them, and the only way to resist this danger is constant vigilance, self-reflection, and political education, not simply self-righteous denunciations of our enemies.

The reality is that some TERFs are building alliances with the right in order to attack trans people. It does often seem to be the case that the more these feminists center opposition to “transgender ideology” in their politics, the further they go from their left origins. This seems to be another example of leftists switching sides, or perhaps more accurately demonstrating that the line between friend and enemy is not eternal, but is a historical process, always in a state of transformation. The three way fight helps us understand the need to oppose anti-fascist researchers who become counter-extremism experts for CIA backed think tanks. It gives us a framework to understand and oppose anti-imperialist activists who become agents of Russian imperialism. In the same way it can help us understand (as our enemies) feminists who move toward a kind of emerging gender fascism, out of their commitment to “protecting” (cis) women.

As with any other right wing forces, we ought to regard hardcore gender criticals as our enemies, while recognizing that their arguments and assumptions are far more widespread. Challenging transphobia and transmisogyny within our movements and social milieus is a part of fighting it in the society, though different kinds of contradictions require different methods of struggle.

I’m honestly not sure what the best ways are to struggle against the GC movement. I think we need political clarity that the forces trying to exterminate us are our enemies, even if they claim allegiance to feminism. At the same time, it is true that gender politics are shifting rapidly in this period in ways that can feel confusing and disorienting for many who must be won over to gender liberation and a feminism that fights for all of our freedom. Striking a skillful balance between fierce clarity and nuance and care is always an important task for anti-fascists and other revolutionaries, particularly in a moment where political alliances and political categories themselves are in such a state of flux and instability.

The gender critical TERF movement are often the anti-trans bigots that we have the most proximity with. They are often the folks we’re most likely to encounter online or in LGBTQ community. But, at least in the United States, they are hardly the driving force behind anti-trans legislation and violence. They are at most junior partners, or perhaps a token radfem ladies auxiliary to the real power on the right, which is driven by Christian nationalism and male supremacy. This isn’t to say that we shouldn’t oppose and defeat them, but in doing so we should not confuse proximity with power.
 
I've never seen the Left turn out fervently for gay rights as it turns out so fervently for trans rights. Can I have a witness?
 
I've never seen the Left turn out fervently for gay rights as it turns out so fervently for trans rights. Can I have a witness?
You can have a glass of water and a nice lie-down for a bit and maybe you'll be able to post more sensibly when you get up. Apart from anything else, I don't think you can even separate out "gay rights" and "trans rights" in a wholly coherent way, which is why terms like LGBT and queer exist - if the current wave of protests against drag queens were taking place 20 or 30 years ago, they would've been framed as being about stopping gay predators grooming kids, now they tend to be pitched as being more about stopping trans predators grooming kids, but the content is the same.
 
Thought this was quite good on the GC/TERF question, from this interview:

I think it's an important point but doesn't really capture a lot of what's going on in the UK Gender Critical movement. There are certainly radical feminists involved, but most of them seem to be doing their best to memory hole the history of radical feminist activism.

I suspect this is partly self interest - if Julie Bindel was still going round saying women should relearn their sexuality, leave their husbands and become lesbians then that Spectator gig would probably dry up pretty quickly. But also because many of the key tenets of second wave radical feminism are in direct opposition to Gender Critical ideology and they'd rather not remind people that Dworkin called for the end of the sex distinction itself or that Shulamith Firestone proposed liberating women from motherhood by using technology (or trans-humanist) means to facilitate human reproduction.

I also doubt that even at it's most fractious the feminist movements of the past would have tolerated the way people like Glinner and other gender critical men treat women who disagree with them. I don't think Graham Lineham or Harry the Owl or Wings can in any way be described as feminists and they've been there from the start. They are either right wing or paternalist centrists and if anything the UK's Gender Critical movement is a conservative one that reifies the family, parenthood and the state and despite the rhetoric acts in a way which is deeply hostile to gender nonconformity. The whole just be a man in a dress lasted about five minutes, now it's all eugh, autogynephiles, perverts, groomers, and poor confused lesbians who don't know their own minds bless them.

The radical feminists that remain (and many have left or gone silent) have either been marginalised or have fallen inline probably because they realise the role that the right plays in their movement is too important. They may have been able to cause a row at the anarchist bookfair but they were fringe until Murdoch, Dacre and the like decided to amplify them. They aren't prepared to risk sacrificing that by being genuinely radical or attacking patriarchy outside of the very narrow lens that is anti-trans politics.
 
So Telegraph has kicked off the 'Children Identifying As Cats' bullshit again - and people responding to me on Twitter saying 'But it's TRUE they've spoken to children and parents'; yeah, that'll make it true, parents with an axe to grind wouldn't make something up would they? Especially when, if it were true, a school would never put out a statement that they, I dunno, did discipline a student for upsetting a student who identifies as a moon, because they know journalists are scum and would try to identify such a person (if they existed). So unless or until I see an official statement from a school confirming such things (which they know there will never be), it's just a load of anecdotal bullshit and half truths. Sure, there are probably a lot of anime fans who have a catgirl/foxgirl alter ego online or maybe even something between their friends, but I sincerely doubt this is something they make demands on their schools to accommodate.
 
So Telegraph has kicked off the 'Children Identifying As Cats' bullshit again - and people responding to me on Twitter saying 'But it's TRUE they've spoken to children and parents'; yeah, that'll make it true, parents with an axe to grind wouldn't make something up would they? Especially when, if it were true, a school would never put out a statement that they, I dunno, did discipline a student for upsetting a student who identifies as a moon, because they know journalists are scum and would try to identify such a person (if they existed). So unless or until I see an official statement from a school confirming such things (which they know there will never be), it's just a load of anecdotal bullshit and half truths. Sure, there are probably a lot of anime fans who have a catgirl/foxgirl alter ego online or maybe even something between their friends, but I sincerely doubt this is something they make demands on their schools to accommodate.

Well even if a kid did identify as a cat/the moon or whatever, there's a middle ground between 'must respect this and treat it as sacrosanct' and 'open season' isn't there. Which is basically that regardless of what they're saying they shouldn't be bullied by their peers (or anyone else).
 
I've never seen the Left turn out fervently for gay rights as it turns out so fervently for trans rights. Can I have a witness?
I'm still waiting for "the left" to turn up for trans rights. I don't where you've been hanging out, but from where i am the left has been dragged kicking and screaming into supporting trans people, just like it was for gay people. And the left as a whole still does not support trans people. This has ever been about left versus right. sure the left use different arguments to justify why they hate trans people, but its always been cis versus trans. Cis people on the whole don't get it, even among allies there is a shocking lack of awareness of what trans actually is.

What's funny is the right blame the left for trans people existing and the left blame middle class parents, corporations and "big pharma" and governments trying to distract everyone from "real" problems, but trans people continue to exist and always have done regardless. It's like watching a pantomime, but scarier.
 
Suddenly Twitter is full of people who 'know' there are kids identifying as cats because they know teachers, you know! :rolleyes:

Going to ask my oldest, who goes to the most woke, LGBTQ+ North London school which must surely have its cats if anywhere does, how many trans species pupils there are there.
 
It is weird how the rumour crops up in all these random places, and the people saying it in my experience are so convinced it's true. But when pressed its always, someone told them and someone else told them and who knows where they heard it from.....
 
It is weird how the rumour crops up in all these random places, and the people saying it in my experience are so convinced it's true. But when pressed its always, someone told them and someone else told them and who knows where they heard it from.....

They all heard it from the fucking Telegraph.

How it has managed to overtake the Mail in the race to the bottom I've really no idea.
 
Also, guess what, no one was actually 'identifying as a cat', it was a brought up within a (bad faith) rhetorical question from a student

So an unpleasant child repeating an absurdist trope in the context of abusing another student is somehow evidence that the absurdist trope itself is somehow real?

Reminds me of that Scottish teacher who 'got sacked for not using pronouns' but actually got sacked for being a mad cunt and then barred from teaching for waltzing into a school he no longer worked at and kicking off, in clear violation of the most basic safeguarding rules.

e2a: Not just barred, but jailed. Still somehow it's the pronouns that are the thing, not the 'being a mad cunt' stuff.
 
Suddenly Twitter is full of people who 'know' there are kids identifying as cats because they know teachers, you know! :rolleyes:

Going to ask my oldest, who goes to the most woke, LGBTQ+ North London school which must surely have its cats if anywhere does, how many trans species pupils there are there.
I work at a school that previously had a very liberal, typical lefty teacher bias (recently changed with new management), pride flag flying on the flag pole, lessons about pansexuality etc. and we have a grand total of one openly trans pupil and 0 cats (we have one dog but it's a cis dog).
 
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