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Transphobes gunning hard for 'paedophilia' angle all of a sudden

Sasaferrato said:
I don't think that Christian religious fundamentalists number that many in the UK. Religious belief in general declines year on year, understandably perhaps.

The US is different, in parts.

It is saddening that splits are appearing in the LGBT+ community, it is an oppressed community as it stands, and internecine feuds don't help.
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I think the lack of a Christo-fascist base here is certainly a significant defence against it happening here, but we mustn't be complacent. We've seen how good media and social media is as shifting what is seen as acceptable over sharply to the right against all evidence, especially when dealing with something that is poorly understood, be it the European Union or transgender people.
 
smokedout said:
It's probably best to think of the gender critical movement as one that contains some feminists (and also conservatives, religious fundamentalists etc) but which is not explicitly feminist beyond opposition to trans people on the basis that so-called trans ideology harms women.

I've read a lot of the chat amongst gender critical people about working with the far right and two things stand out. One is that some have convinced themselves that trans people and Queer theory are such an existential threat that they believe working with anyone is legitimate. The other is that the movement contains a lot of very middle class newly politicised people who don't really seem to take the threat posed by the far right seriously. It's all a bit of an edgy game to them, they have no background in the history of antifascism or even the history of fascism and also they're mostly white and middle class so don't see fascist views as a personal threat. They kind of seem to see them as the embarrassing uncle who's a bit racist and out of touch but who's heart is in the right place.

I read a thread on mumsnet where someone posted footage of a far right kick off against the police and they were palpably shocked. But they're like football hooligans someone said, I was like oh really. They have no idea in a lot of cases who they are actually getting involved with.
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I’m really trying to dig into this as working with the far right is beyond the pale. From the start though there’s been attempts to paint women talking about women’s rights as fascists. Which leads to my current skepticism. But obviously I can now see that there’s various factors in play and if it literally just is a fash issue now.
But I always saw it as more complicated than that. The likes of Posie Parker seems to be both undermining the GC position with connecting it to fascism whilst attacking trans people at the same time. Like I say, a female Tommy Robinson.
 
From the start of what?

Because if you mean from the start of the "trans debate", is it not possible that you might have only become aware of that going on after some of the GC brigade started with their fascination with checking who is using which toilets, and those links were already starting to be made? Trans people have always been marginalised and ridiculed and both verbally and physically attacked, but the linking up of some of the more extreme elements of transphobia including some of the more vocal GC lot and fascists is relatively recent.
 
Also I think most trans/nb/fellow travellers don't want a fucking debate or a fight or have to have counter-protests, we want to be left alone to live our lives.

The terminology "trans debate" is I think unhelpful, because it is essentially an "anti-trans debate" in terms of the direction it is coming from and the parameters of it.
 
Tbh, Parker has alienated quite a lot of the GC crowd and they have distanced themselves from her. A bit like Mr Yaxley Lennon, she is primarily a grifter and attention seeker rather than someone with real ideas or much of a drive to make anything happen. But that seems to attract some people who are and who do.
 
My sense is that KJK is actually the biggest intellectual leader of the movement. She's smart enough not to do all the logical chopping with arcane categories that the likes of Stock or Joyce do. She keeps it simple and she focuses on women, biology, the right to speak, the right to women's spaces, the right to bring up your child as you know best and all the political passions that drives. I think she's a thought leader not just for the gender critical movement but for the conservatives and fascists who've noticed it and want to exploit it. There is certainly a grift to what she's doing, but I'm not sure that matters much in real terms.

It's alarming how little her protests with far right backing have affected her popularity. It's made the old guard radical feminists distance themselves from her, but we're really seeing something new emerge. She calls it "femalism" and that may stick...
 
Magnus McGinty said:
I’m really trying to dig into this as working with the far right is beyond the pale. From the start though there’s been attempts to paint women talking about women’s rights as fascists. Which leads to my current skepticism. But obviously I can now see that there’s various factors in play and if it literally just is a fash issue now.
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People often use fascist as a synonym for authoritarian, or bigoted and I think that was the way it was used at first by some, although most people who objected to the early UK terf movement accused them of being transphobes which is more correct. I'd also argue the views of people like Julia Long and Sheila Jeffreys are totalitarian leaning, they are openly trans eliminist, want to ban research, healthcare, any discussion of trans people in schools etc But they aren't fascists in the sense that a lot of anti-fascists would understand the term.

The crossover between some terfs and the conservative/religious right in the US was already fairly well established. They have co-operated on attacking sex workers for a long time. In the UK it has happened more slowly as anti-woke rhetoric became a more widely used right wing tactic and conservatives to the right of the Tory party and beyond it actively courted gender critical activists. Publications like the Spectator started giving them a platform, as did a lot of alt-right figures who might not be fascists in the Mussolini sense, but are part of that ecosystem. Gender criticals mostly lapped this up claiming they had no choice because they were being silenced by the left wing media, despite regularly also being given space in the Guardian and Observer.

As the rhetoric became more heated and more explicitly anti-LGBTQ - with people like Glinner calling everyone groomers etc - the more traditional far right realised this was an opportunity. Tommy Robinson put out statements of support and even Nick Griffin dragged himself onto twitter to declare he was gender critical now. People like Sonia Poulton also brought in the conspiracy crowd, and many prominent gender criticals appeared on her show.

I'd say Posie Parker's protests and the Drag Queen protests were the real points of convergence in the UK. This caused a bit of a split in GC circles, with some older school feminists condemning it, but Posie won out unfortunately and the movement has by and large rallied behind her, with previous more moderates like JK Rowling coming over to her side. And so here we are.
 
Epona said:
From the start of what?

Because if you mean from the start of the "trans debate", is it not possible that you might have only become aware of that going on after some of the GC brigade started with their fascination with checking who is using which toilets, and those links were already starting to be made? Trans people have always been marginalised and ridiculed and both verbally and physically attacked, but the linking up of some of the more extreme elements of transphobia including some of the more vocal GC lot and fascists is relatively recent.
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Sorry, I should have been more specific. It was the event in Hyde Park back several years ago.
 
smokedout said:
People often use fascist as a synonym for authoritarian, or bigoted and I think that was the way it was used at first by some, although most people who objected to the early UK terf movement accused them of being transphobes which is more correct. I'd also argue the views of people like Julia Long and Sheila Jeffreys are totalitarian leaning, they are openly trans eliminist, want to ban research, healthcare, any discussion of trans people in schools etc But they aren't fascists in the sense that a lot of anti-fascists would understand the term.

The crossover between some terfs and the conservative/religious right in the US was already fairly well established. They have co-operated on attacking sex workers for a long time. In the UK it has happened more slowly as anti-woke rhetoric became a more widely used right wing tactic and conservatives to the right of the Tory party and beyond it actively courted gender critical activists. Publications like the Spectator started giving them a platform, as did a lot of alt-right figures who might not be fascists in the Mussolini sense, but are part of that ecosystem. Gender criticals mostly lapped this up claiming they had no choice because they were being silenced by the left wing media, despite regularly also being given space in the Guardian and Observer.

As the rhetoric became more heated and more explicitly anti-LGBTQ - with people like Glinner calling everyone groomers etc - the more traditional far right realised this was an opportunity. Tommy Robinson put out statements of support and even Nick Griffin dragged himself onto twitter to declare he was gender critical now. People like Sonia Poulton also brought in the conspiracy crowd, and many prominent gender criticals appeared on her show.

I'd say Posie Parker's protests and the Drag Queen protests were the real points of convergence in the UK. This caused a bit of a split in GC circles, with some older school feminists condemning it, but Posie won out unfortunately and the movement has by and large rallied behind her, with previous more moderates like JK Rowling coming over to her side. And so here we are.
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Good post. I’ll reflect upon it for a bit.
 
Magnus McGinty said:
A GC feminist automatically becomes an ingenuine feminist? Interesting take.
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Well maybe someone can explain to me how feminism, which I always thought was based on the idea that nobody's experience of life should be adversely affected by their sex, is compatible with a movement that wants to make damn sure everyone stays in their biological lane regardless of the cost to their dignity or quality of life.

If there was such a thing as gender critical feminism that actually focussed on addressing gender roles and gender binaries for the purposes of improving human experience, I'd have no problem with that. But what goes by that name is actually just more or less intellectualised transphobia. It's not an ideology, it's a rationalisation. It's a PR-friendly panto disguise for bigotry.
 
Tbh while yes the actual motivation is more often than not tied up with a barely sublimated (or front and centre) visceral feeling, it's not that difficult to fit transphobia within an intellectual framework of feminism as long as you're prepared to start from the position that birth sex defines your material position to the extent that it's impossible, at root, to become anything else or take up any other role. Hence, for example, the focus on birth and menopause as examples of things that only real women experience.

From that standpoint breaking down the gender binary becomes the priority, ie. tackling certain specifics (offsetting of vulnerabilities, equality of opportunity, pay, redefinition of gendered roles around social reproduction etc), rather than destroying it. The problem of course is that breaking down gender difference is also made vulnerable in practice by the more essentialising aspects of this approach, producing among other things the unintended (but entirely predictable) outcome of cis women being harassed and violently removed from women's toilets for the crime of being taller than 5ft 8.
 
Rob Ray said:
the unintended (but entirely predictable) outcome, for example, of cis women being harassed and violently removed from women's toilets for the crime of being taller than 5ft 8.
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Where has this happened?
 
ouirdeaux said:
Where has this happened?
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Not sure of her height, but there was a case recently where security (male iirc) were called to remove a gay woman from a queue inside a women's toilet facility because other people in the queue didn't think she looked feminine enough - so that sort of thing is happening.
It might be further up this thread somewhere.
 
Quite a few gender critical, successful journalists on twitter have been retweeting and showing support for Nick Cohen long after allegations about his conduct started coming out. As I said on the thread about him and the Guardian, there is no way you can have been working in mainstream journalism in the UK for as long as these people and not have known for a while about said allegations and his reputation. His nickname at the Guardian was the Octopus, and young women new to the job would be warned about his alleged behaviour. But he writes "gender critical" pieces.

It really does look as though for those journalists, being anti-trans in the name of "women's rights" was more important than actually standing with women against sexual assault and harassment.
 
Predictably terfs are now coming for trans health care for adults using the same evangelical anti-abortion legal team that acted for Keira Bell: https://archive.is/74Zvg

A detransitioner (who transitioned at 26 after 100 hours of NHS therapy) and the father of a 21 year old trans woman are attempting to bring a Judicial Review which seems to be an attempt to end trans healthcare for those under 26. The father says he hopes this will prevent his trans daughter from having 'imminent' surgery although it's difficult to see how that will work.

The case is being widely supported across the gender critical movement including the so-called moderates. 3 things come to mind - it's nobody's fucking business what trans people do with our bodies except ours and our healthcare providers (in the miraculous event we can find one). This attack on bodily autonomy is only going one way.

Secondly there seems to be a growing trend amongst terfs that assumes neurodiverse adults are unable to make choices about their lives and so should be subject to special protection. It is deeply ableist.

And finally the idea that a parent should be able to stick his nose into the healthcare of his 21 year old daughter is horrifying and a recipe for abuse and coercive control. This also seems to be part of a trend. Gender critical parent's groups are full of parents bemoaning their children turning 18 and not being able to practice their amateur conversion therapy techniques on them anymore. It's also a widespread terf demand that schools should out trans kids to their parents in any circumstances, as well as the growing terf contingent who oppose Gillick Competence.

Nobody who genuinely cares about children and young people and who understands that abuse is most likely to come from a parent or family member can support this surely. What happens when some man decides he doesn't want his 21 year old to have an abortion, because he think she's vulnerable and not able to make up her own mind? Or perhaps because she's neurodiverse. This is starting to go somewhere really dangerous, and not just for trans people.
 
smokedout said:
Predictably terfs are now coming for trans health care for adults using the same evangelical anti-abortion legal team that acted for Keira Bell: https://archive.is/74Zvg

A detransitioner (who transitioned at 26 after 100 hours of NHS therapy) and the father of a 21 year old trans woman are attempting to bring a Judicial Review which seems to be an attempt to end trans healthcare for those under 26. The father says he hopes this will prevent his trans daughter from having 'imminent' surgery although it's difficult to see how that will work.

The case is being widely supported across the gender critical movement including the so-called moderates. 3 things come to mind - it's nobody's fucking business what trans people do with our bodies except ours and our healthcare providers (in the miraculous event we can find one). This attack on bodily autonomy is only going one way.

Secondly there seems to be a growing trend amongst terfs that assumes neurodiverse adults are unable to make choices about their lives and so should be subject to special protection. It is deeply ableist.

And finally the idea that a parent should be able to stick his nose into the healthcare of his 21 year old daughter is horrifying and a recipe for abuse and coercive control. This also seems to be part of a trend. Gender critical parent's groups are full of parents bemoaning their children turning 18 and not being able to practice their amateur conversion therapy techniques on them anymore. It's also a widespread terf demand that schools should out trans kids to their parents in any circumstances, as well as the growing terf contingent who oppose Gillick Competence.

Nobody who genuinely cares about children and young people and who understands that abuse is most likely to come from a parent or family member can support this surely. What happens when some man decides he doesn't want his 21 year old to have an abortion, because he think she's vulnerable and not able to make up her own mind? Or perhaps because she's neurodiverse. This is starting to go somewhere really dangerous, and not just for trans people.
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If anyone thinks that the next step from this won't be a moral panic about abortion rights, or the right to reproductive control, then they are in a fantasy land.
This is horrible :(
 
smokedout said:
Predictably terfs are now coming for trans health care for adults using the same evangelical anti-abortion legal team that acted for Keira Bell: https://archive.is/74Zvg

A detransitioner (who transitioned at 26 after 100 hours of NHS therapy) and the father of a 21 year old trans woman are attempting to bring a Judicial Review which seems to be an attempt to end trans healthcare for those under 26. The father says he hopes this will prevent his trans daughter from having 'imminent' surgery although it's difficult to see how that will work.

The case is being widely supported across the gender critical movement including the so-called moderates. 3 things come to mind - it's nobody's fucking business what trans people do with our bodies except ours and our healthcare providers (in the miraculous event we can find one). This attack on bodily autonomy is only going one way.

Secondly there seems to be a growing trend amongst terfs that assumes neurodiverse adults are unable to make choices about their lives and so should be subject to special protection. It is deeply ableist.

And finally the idea that a parent should be able to stick his nose into the healthcare of his 21 year old daughter is horrifying and a recipe for abuse and coercive control. This also seems to be part of a trend. Gender critical parent's groups are full of parents bemoaning their children turning 18 and not being able to practice their amateur conversion therapy techniques on them anymore. It's also a widespread terf demand that schools should out trans kids to their parents in any circumstances, as well as the growing terf contingent who oppose Gillick Competence.

Nobody who genuinely cares about children and young people and who understands that abuse is most likely to come from a parent or family member can support this surely. What happens when some man decides he doesn't want his 21 year old to have an abortion, because he think she's vulnerable and not able to make up her own mind? Or perhaps because she's neurodiverse. This is starting to go somewhere really dangerous, and not just for trans people.
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Patriarchy asserting itself. FFS.
 
smokedout said:
there seems to be a growing trend amongst terfs that assumes neurodiverse adults are unable to make choices about their lives and so should be subject to special protection. It is deeply ableist.
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I'd go further than that. The attitude of assumed incapability is some of the most dangerous thinking that can be pulled out of the bigot garbage pile. It's been used to justify everything from lobotomy to eugenics and systematic child kidnap. That it's being employed with any seriousness is absolutely terrifying.
 
Cloo said:
Like this twitter user, not sure what DM means by this piece



Many are suggesting it's the 'the Gays will make us all be Nazis by Going Too Far' angle
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Well let's not forget that in the '30s they did run with a "Hurrah for the Brownshirts" headline and were Mosley supporters... Maybe just having a bit of nostalgia back to their true calling here :(
 
Cloo said:
Like this twitter user, not sure what DM means by this piece



Many are suggesting it's the 'the Gays will make us all be Nazis by Going Too Far' angle
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Reckon so. "It's all your fault they got into power" and that kind of thing.

ETA: and of course, it simply has to be the gays who are going too far, and not at all the folk with would be Nazi leanings...
 
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Cloo said:
Like this twitter user, not sure what DM means by this piece



Many are suggesting it's the 'the Gays will make us all be Nazis by Going Too Far' angle
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That’s basically what Rowling was saying the other week
 
Has there been any refutation of ‘anti-gender ideology’ claim that Weimar sexologists were advocates of eugenics? I ask because a) it’s an allegation of a serious nature that’s often made against Trans advocates, b) it does tie in with some of the frankly gross views expressed on urban about ‘dragging the inflexibly minded finger painting idiots kicking and screaming’ (what an image), and c) the charge of eugenics is made by ‘both sides’ of this issue against each other
 
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