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Tory UK EU Exit Referendum

ItWillNeverWork said:
India isn't in the EU. :confused:
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Have you read the article?

Romanians are being employed and trained as chefs in Indian restaurants because skilled chefs from Bangladesh are prohibited by immigration rules. Therefore restaurant owners are being urged to vote Leave so they can recruit from Bangladesh, allegedly.
 
Britain’s union with EU is not like a marriage, suggesting there is no separation or divorce in sight. It is an unanticipated political union that will continue to evolve for an unforeseeable future in a way that will strain Britain’s relations so often. Britain will continue to disagree and contend to steer in a manner to reflect Britain’s interest as conceived by the political leaders of the respective governments of the day. I don’t think anyone can forecast the future progress or failure of Britain within the EU. It is for the future historians to look back and talk about how Britain has fared amidst the discontentment with the ramifying conditions of the EU membership, taking in to account the global influences and impacts.
 
Pickman's model said:
why not cut out the middleman and occasionally have a glance at that paper yourself?
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Alternatively, there is stuff I'm currently holding myself back from taking him to task over (I'm theoretically on ignore anyway). But I'm not a big fan of echo chambers. Getting rid of astro-turfers , who probably hadn't read any of the preceding text before jumping in and coming out with stuff that would make you think twice about some one you'd known for years rather than complete strangers a better ask.

Greezbozz at least somehow a ten year history and over a thousand posts...There are other posters who have been scared out of this corner of the site, and I think urban would be better if that hadn't happened -principal rather than his politics, (there's a real wtf. in there)
 
Greebozz said:
I do know where you're coming from, everything is so politically correct, it's all about the way you express yourself. It's the same with me with all the BS in the media it makes one long to express oneself in a non-varnished way, it's the same with me.

What you said is largely true and you have the media covering up information for fear of stirring up racism, and while I can understand I feel that the world gone mad. In the UK hospitals have gone into the red and accident and emergency department have been overwhelmed but you'll never hear a journalist discussing the reasons why that might be because if he did it be accused of being a racist.

In regards to immigration, the expansion of Muslim culture, British way of life changing forever etc narrative. For some people it is extremely emotional and painful, myself included. Others are not bothered by it at all, or think it's a good thing. It varies enormously if you are a immigrant yourself son or daughter of an immigrant or are from a Muslim community, then one may have a different point of view than someone who's lived all their life here and felt their communities become more alienating places filled with foreign voices and alien religions.

As I mentioned in my other post, you're looking at things the way I did through the eyes of self-interest, self protection, defending, securing but that is not really a loving way to be. Sure bad people might come into this country that we should do us harm, but how will they learn a better way of being.

Point being on a spiritual level everyone is equally valuable. People really want to come to Britain because it's a great place, has a great National Health Service. If the good things Britain have to offer are shared then that is a kindness.

For myself and probably a few others it is extremely painful seeing the way things are going with Europe in terms of sovereignty been diminished and anyone being able to live here from the EU. But everything changes if the vote is to remain in Europe, maybe good things will come of it, is certainly good karma or good intention to welcome people want to come to Britain, they will have better lives and any impact due to overcrowding and other issues isn't probably going to be that bad. It may even lead to more direct action and even revolution and lead to a fairer society.

The point is be at peace within yourself. Whatever the situation is it's not as bad as being conquered by another country a fate that many had to deal with for years. An example of which being the former Soviet bloc countries.

I'm not saying people here who vote to stay in Europe are doing so out of kindness, they're probably just motivated by liking the attractive men and women coming from Europe and worries about fear messages from the government about the economy.
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Extreme victimhood and delusions right there.
 
I can draw a sort of parallel between David Cameron, Boris Johnson, and Miliband brothers. Miliband brothers are from one mould, but they have differences and some similarities. Likewise, David Cameron and Boris are from another distinctive mould, but they have differences and similarities.
Not statistically significant of course.
 
All four of them can stand up in front of an audience and string a few sentences together. That in itself is a skill, not one that I have, but on top of that to be great leaders, they need a lot more and I am not sure any of the four of them have what it takes to be a great leader.
 
weltweit said:
All four of them can stand up in front of an audience and string a few sentences together. That in itself is a skill, not one that I have, but on top of that to be great leaders, they need a lot more and I am not sure any of the four of them have what it takes to be a great leader.
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And yet that what Boris clearly thinks this, is about. Ah well, rhubarb rhubarb... gave it my best shot...., but you will vote for me for the important things ....rhubarb rhubarb the fore coming Tory leadership elections.

The immigration targets may have been cynical, but to try and glean votes from that , when we'd still be in the single market (which does have freedom of movement of people as one of its four pillars)- cynicism^2
 
And I think to be a great leader, the people have to know what you stand for, at the moment the only leading politician where people know what they stand for is Corbyn. Does anyone know what Johnson stands for, apart from a personal ambition?
 
gosub said:
.. The immigration targets may have been cynical, but to try and glean votes from that , when we'd still be in the single market (which does have freedom of movement of people as one of its four pillars)- cynicism^2
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Yes, if leave wants to remain in the single market, they will have to accept EU free movement. If they are arguing they will reduce EU immigration then I think that is dishonest.
 
weltweit said:
Yes, if leave wants to remain in the single market, they will have to accept EU free movement. If they are arguing they will reduce EU immigration then I think that is dishonest.
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What they are arguing is a position they couldn't possibly get through a Parliament where 69% is publicly backing remain. A Leave but still in the Single Market is the only one that's doable because a lot of those MP's don't seem to be able to tell the difference between the Single Market and the EU.


I think the best that can be achieved in this referendum is that more people will grasp there is a difference. The small matter of over arching Global bodies and our relationship with them - isn't going to come up. -Public Sector Procurement is under WTO umbrella
 
My postal vote card is here

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brogdale said:
Good LRB piece by Jan-Werner Muller, LRB · Jan-Werner Müller · Europe’s Sullen Child: Breurope, in which he offers the term "project victimhood" for the brexiteers, and calls out the racist strategy of the populists...
921ee70f-3617-4e10-bf1a-6617497fc48b_zps56an0020.png
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Dense text of an article. But worth a read. We covered the constitution debacle at the time, and the Spitzenkandidaten , on that, this probably most pertinently isn't addressed in the article. Back to Lisbon, what we we were sold as a tidying up exercise, it now turns out has enough scope in to allow for the introduction of pan EU national insurance for example. That's not tidying up. But the EU was so put out by what happened with Lisbon it be would rather use loop holes and bend out of shape existing treaties rather than the slog of formulating new ones with the gnashing of teeth when it fails (through whatever means) to get the blessing of all EUropean states. That makes Cameron's law of no treaty change without referendum increasingly threadbare, (and adds to why they are using the work arounds).

The when is a veto not a veto bit, I had the same understanding, and it would that I would have used for a can't trust Cameron sledging rather Turkey if it were me. (would have been preaching to the converted here though me thinks.) I think similar vetoy thing may apply to the EUro army, but I'm still getting my head round that and got exams to do this week which take priory.

It final paragraph about losing power, actually we get power back in that the UK's voice is its own rather than common position on global body talks - though not EU - China talks:rolleyes:. But that might just be me be sullen and lining up a future mobilisation - personally I'd rather we were addressing it simultaneously.
 
Maybe I'm edging off into TFH territory here...but does anyone else think the migrant boat in the English channel story seems just a tad too convenient for the 'leave' lot?
Two UK nationals arrested along with 18 Albanians...hmmm.
 
weltweit said:
And I think to be a great leader, the people have to know what you stand for, at the moment the only leading politician where people know what they stand for is Corbyn. Does anyone know what Johnson stands for, apart from a personal ambition?
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He stands for Wiff-Waff
 
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