Tory UK EU Exit Referendum

[gosub]

EU immigration is neutral in this referendum, assuming leave would like access to the single market, because a cornerstone of access to the single market is the free movement of people goods and services, in or out.

That IS THE REALITY, it is not however what is being sold, unfortunately:
This happens : First-time buyers would benefit from Brexit, says Moody's

and Turkey goes on the grid for 3 days....

 

[kabbes]

Some of the Leavers want to leave the single market too.

 

[gosub]

Some of the Leavers want to leave the single market too.

I'm sure some do.

 

[newbie]

I found this interesting, I have been wavering between leave and abstain recently, the latter because in all conscience I feel that I cannot give support directly or indirectly to a bunch of racist xenophobic scum, and what they are likely to do here which they will see a leave vote as giving them carte blanche doesn't bear thinking about.

The selective blindness of "lefties" who support Brexit

He's too wide-eyed pro-remain for my taste (eg I don't subscribe to "The EU is a progressive project; it is our project.") but that aside he makes points that need making.

I questioned a supporter of Lexit as to what the objective was. His reply was: "1. Leave neoliberal institution of EU. 2. Elect democratic socialist Govt. £. Inspire others 4 Form community of like-minded".

My immediate observation, looking at that list is that it is the wrong way around.

Surely, in a democracy, one must start from forming a community of like-minded individuals, which then inspires others, builds momentum, elects a a socialist government, which then takes on the EU's current warped manifestation. So why the strange reversal of aims? I venture to say it is because the left in the UK has failed miserably at 2, £ and 4 in the last two elections - and, arguably, much longer than that.

This is where the UK is so different to Greece. Greece's politics are, on average, to the left of the EU aggregate. This is why, as a Greek, I did support a controlled exit from the single currency. It was clear to me that Greece wanted to go in a socialist direction. Its departure would have a much smaller effect on the cohesion of the total. In effect, Greece had achieved "2, £ and 4".

The exact opposite is true of the UK. Its politics are, on average, to the right of the EU. The EU has historically worked as a brake on UK governments wanting to spin in a rightward direction. This cannot be ignored or supplanted by a fantasy.

With circumstances as they are, nationally and globally, actively opting for a choice which destabilises Europe and strengthens the far right is nothing short of destructive. Doing so in exchange for the vague promise of magical socialism, when in fact the campaign is being spearheaded by the right wing of the right wing, seems to me downright daft.

Read more at:The selective blindness of "lefties" who support Brexit

 

[kabbes]

Yeah, the points are well worth noting.

 

[DotCommunist]

vague promise of magical socialism

liberal condescension endears me not.

 

[Teaboy]

Would a leave vote strengthen the far right necessarily? It could be argued that the rise of the far right across Europe is in part a consequence of the failure of the EU. In short is the EU is the reason the far right are on the march in quite a few EU countries?

 

[teqniq]

Remain is a massive victory for the right, too. Whichever way you look there's victories for the right.

This is why I've said before if feels like we're damned if we do, damned if we don't.

 

[Greebozz]

I can't believe staying in the EU is being talked about so glibly. Britain with fascinating history stretching thousands of years into the past is going to continue the process of having its identity and self determination erased. It won't be Britain any more it will just be land, a small portfolio in a giant European bureaucracy. To me it's like a sort of cultural revolution similar to what happened in China when everything representing the past was destroyed.

The point I'm making is that once sovereignty is gone it's gone, it's permanent, there is no way back. Many have this inbuilt self hatred towards Britain but that could change a lot of good has come from this country, in terms of science, literature, thinking politics.

What's worse is that it's the young people who are most in favour of staying in Europe, those with the least experience in the most easily influenced. David Cameron is acting like the Cameo Rouge in the film the killing fields in which the children are encouraged to betray their parents.

In my opinion the best outcome will be to vote out of Europe. This will create a great fuss but it will mean we will have full control of our destiny as a country. It is also my opinion that virtually nothing will change in terms of immigration no one from the EU that is been here a few years is going to be thrown out though it may create some barriers to numbers coming in which will give local services a chance to cope with the existing influx.

The only thing will lose is our famous voice of the table, our 1 in 28 minority vote. It's such a bad deal to give up democracy and the ability to move quickly politically and keep this country's identity for virtually nothing.

People will talk about economic downturns, but millions died for this country in previous wars, what exact sacrifice are we talking about here, having to buy one less computer game. But what about the benefits of less pressure on infrastructure and not having to move away from friends and family because rents are going through the roof due to demand.

Before anyone has a go, these are my opinions you have to agree with my opinions but could I suggest you put your reasons for staying if you believe that point of view rather than your reply being "racist cunt". Anyone that makes dumb rude comments I put on ignore straightaway. The future of the country is more important than scoring clever points and feeling superior, that you have insulted some strawman you have created in your imagination.

 

[stethoscope]

Some shit.

Fuck off.

Like you promised. Twice, or was it three times?

 

[Pickman's model]

the Cameo Rouge

the khmer rouge had more than a cameo part in the killing fields.

 

[kabbes]

Racist cunt.

 

[stethoscope]

Has this been posted up already? Paul Embery (FBU) really spot on here I thought...
Why on earth would socialists support the neoliberal, undemocratic EU?

 

[Teaboy]

I can't believe staying in the EU is being talked about so glibly. Britain with fascinating history stretching thousands of years into the past is going to continue the process of having its identity and self determination erased. It won't be Britain any more it will just be land, a small portfolio in a giant European bureaucracy. To me it's like a sort of cultural revolution similar to what happened in China when everything representing the past was destroyed.

snip.

I can't be bothered with the rest because I can't make it past the first paragraph. Britain does not have a history stretching back thousands of years and if you think everything representing the past was destroyed in the Chinese cultural revolution then you are very badly mistaken, terribly so.

 

[Teaboy]

the khmer rouge had more than a cameo part in the killing fields.

 

[Greebozz]

I can't be bothered with the rest because I can't make it past the first paragraph. Britain does not have a history stretching back thousands of years and if you think everything representing the past was destroyed in the Chinese cultural revolution then you are very badly mistaken, terribly so.

Forgive me but I think the way that you are putting your points is a rather poor show. The only way to avoid a comment like yours would be to write something similar to the terms and conditions of a credit agreement. I would have to subsection every point I made to close off every loophole as it were.

Because of this many people don't use this method of comment because it kills a discussion.

 

[The Pale King]

He's too wide-eyed pro-remain for my taste (eg I don't subscribe to "The EU is a progressive project; it is our project.") but that aside he makes points that need making.

"The EU has historically worked as a brake on UK governments wanting to spin in a rightward direction. This cannot be ignored or supplanted by a fantasy."

...Is the above really true? I am not dismissing it out of hand but would like some examples. Seems hard to reconcile with a lot else about the E.U, not least its treatment of Greece.

 

[Greebozz]

"The EU has historically worked as a brake on UK governments wanting to spin in a rightward direction. This cannot be ignored or supplanted by a fantasy."

...Is the above really true? I am not dismissing it out of hand but would like some examples. Seems hard to reconcile with a lot else about the E.U, not least its treatment of Greece.

It's a fair point you make about the EU being a break on largely Tory policies but what bothers me is my uncertainty about what can happen to Europe this is a recent thing from the BBC about the rise of the right wing in Europe. It is my opinion that circumstances in Europe can cause more upheaval, extreme right-wing parties and the opposite equivalent, basically nasty people on both sides.notice that the AustriaFreedom party narrowly lost an electionwith a higher percentage than shown here.

Is Europe lurching to the far right? - BBC News

 

[hot air baboon]

....well broadly with the emphasis on "historic" - back in the 1980's Thatcherite ascendancy , with Labour were deemed unelectable they sort of abandoned euro-scepticism ( apart from Benn ofcourse & a few mavericks ) & embraced the then Commisiion President Jacques Delors - who was regarded as a dangerously interventionist socialist forcing all sorts of euro-regulations on the country in the teeth of opposition from the Thatcher hand-bag & The Sun :

 

[stethoscope]

You worrying about the rise of the far right, Greebozz? For real?!

Now fuck off like you said you would.

 

[ruffneck23]

Forgive me but I think the way that you are putting your points is a rather poor show. The only way to avoid a comment like yours would be to write something similar to the terms and conditions of a credit agreement. I would have to subsection every point I made to close off every loophole as it were.

Because of this many people don't use this method of comment because it kills a discussion.

or put them on ignore, are you still here ?

 

[brogdale]

extreme right-wing parties and the opposite equivalent, basically nasty people on both sides

I'll just leave that there.

 

[Mr Moose]

Remain is a massive victory for the right, too. Whichever way you look there's victories for the right.

There is plenty of ordinary work of the EU, social protection, environmental and scientific research to be applauded. There is nothing on the leave side.

If leave win the signal goes out that only what nationalists can grab for themselves is of any accord. It's bonfire of progressive gains.

Even on the left there is a massive ignorance of the dull work of the EU and it's massive lack of threat to sovereignty. The resource issues of globalisation won't be solved in this way. It's a neutron bomb that leaves the rich houses standing.

You must hope things get shit enough for it to kick off if you vote 'leave'. It's an indulgence and decadence to do so. It's an ignoring of the fact that never in recent history have socialist ideas been so unpopular with ordinary people. King Canute comes to mind for socialists voting out.

 

[killer b]

I don't know who you're arguing against there, but it's nothing to do with what I posted or think.

 

[Greebozz]

There is plenty of ordinary work of the EU, social protection, environmental and scientific research to be applauded. There is nothing on the leave side.

If leave win the signal goes out that only what nationalists can grab for themselves is of any accord. It's bonfire of progressive gains.

Even on the left there is a massive ignorance of the dull work of the EU and it's massive lack of threat to sovereignty. The resource issues of globalisation won't be solved in this way. It's a neutron bomb that leaves the rich houses standing.

You must hope things get shit enough for it to kick off if you vote 'leave'. It's an indulgence and decadence to do so. It's an ignoring of the fact that never in recent history have socialist ideas been so unpopular with ordinary people. King Canute comes to mind for socialists voting out.

What do you think of Tony Benn's thoughts here about Europe.

 

[Mr Moose]

What do you think of Tony Benn's thoughts here about Europe.

I don't give a shit and I'm not listening.

Much as I liked him I don't care if we cede sovereignty over the distribution of frozen sheep carcasses or whatever. The stuff that matters, education, health, defence and yes immigration is down to us to solve still.

 

[stethoscope]

Much as I liked him I don't care if we cede sovereignty over the distribution of frozen sheep carcasses or whatever. The stuff that matters, education, health, defence and yes immigration is down to us to solve still.

All those things that EU neoliberalism is opening up to marketisation and withering away any democratic or public/social ownership and control?

It's an ignoring of the fact that never in recent history have socialist ideas been so unpopular with ordinary people.

And neoliberalism is really working out well for ordinary people?

 

[DotCommunist]

sanders and corbyn, mild social democrats though they may be have seen significant support. So perhaps you are wrong mr moose. Litmus for iron corbze was the recent elections and it all went gravy.

 

[Fisher05]

In my opinion if UK won't exit EU now then it holds greater risk of losing it's identity once in 5-10 years middle east asian migrants become dominant force in selecting next govt. It will slowly move towards a semi to fully shariah compliant nation. It might take some 10 years time to show the symptoms to some people.

So the thing is we should be more careful about this EU migrant/refugee issue hidden reports over what it is really about...

I don't think Brexit will hurt scotland, ireland etc. issues. Nor it will impact UK's business as has been made to believe. It will infact become more stable over long term, lesser job problems then EU over the period of time, more peace...

Nor do UK will face defence issues as it is part of NATO which will remain as it is.

 

[teqniq]

What.