Tory UK EU Exit Referendum

[LeslieB]

Why? (Beyond the fact that all migrations are discrete events and therefore unique)

Assuming this is a serious question?

The language and culture shock of moving between Germany and German Speaking Switzerland, or between NI and the Republic is going to be pretty much zero. Some local laws might be different and that is pretty much it.

A family moving from Spain to Switzerland is going to experience moderate culture shock and considerable language shock.

And a family moving from North Africa or the Middle East to Ireland (or Switzerland, or France, or Germany, or the UK) is going experience very considerable culture shock. Lets be honest, they will. All sorts of things, from the predominant religion, to standards of dress, to attitudes towards gay people and the status of women will be very different. All of that on top of any language barrier.

That is why I was interested to know where Switzerland's immigrants came from

 

[LeslieB]

A hidden joke about refugees drowning and a colour based dog-whistle.

I've no idea what you are on about, unless it is some sort of reference to the fact that Switzerland is landlocked.

If you think I find refugees drowning funny, then I've nothing more to say to you.

 

[butchersapron]

Assuming this is a serious question?

The language and culture shock of moving between Germany and German Speaking Switzerland, or between NI and the Republic is going to be pretty much zero. Some local laws might be different and that is pretty much it.

A family moving from Spain to Switzerland is going to experience moderate culture shock and considerable language shock.

And a family moving from North Africa or the Middle East to Ireland (or Switzerland, or France, or Germany, or the UK) is going experience very considerable culture shock. Lets be honest, they will. All sorts of things, from the predominant religion, to standards of dress, to attitudes towards gay people and the status of women will be very different. All of that on top of any language barrier.

That is why I was interested to know where Switzerland's immigrants came from

Yep yep yep

 

[Lo Siento.]

Assuming this is a serious question?

The language and culture shock of moving between Germany and German Speaking Switzerland, or between NI and the Republic is going to be pretty much zero. Some local laws might be different and that is pretty much it.

A family moving from Spain to Switzerland is going to experience moderate culture shock and considerable language shock.

And a family moving from North Africa or the Middle East to Ireland (or Switzerland, or France, or Germany, or the UK) is going experience very considerable culture shock. Lets be honest, they will. All sorts of things, from the predominant religion, to standards of dress, to attitudes towards gay people and the status of women will be very different. All of that on top of any language barrier.

That is why I was interested to know where Switzerland's immigrants came from

I see. And how would I go about measuring these things? Is there a way of quantifying the relative shock that my Francophone, Francophile, atheist Moroccan friend from urban Marrakech might feel moving to Western Europe as compared to a rural Suffolk lad moving to London?

 

[LeslieB]

I see. And how would I go about measuring these things? Is there a way of quantifying the relative shock that my Francophone, Francophile, atheist Moroccan friend from urban Marrakech might feel moving to Western Europe as compared to a rural Suffolk lad moving to London?

You know very well there isn't.

 

[J Ed]

I see. And how would I go about measuring these things? Is there a way of quantifying the relative shock that my Francophone, Francophile, atheist Moroccan friend from urban Marrakech might feel moving to Western Europe as compared to a rural Suffolk lad moving to London?

I don't know but I think we should measure it in pastries.

 

[Lo Siento.]

You know very well there isn't.

Really? Did they not teach "proving specious generalisations that you've pulled out of your arse" in your human and social geography class?

 

[LeslieB]

Really? Did they not teach "proving specious generalisations that you've pulled out of your arse" in your human and social geography class?

Mate I was merely trying to point out that the 28 per cent figure for Switzerland might not be all it seems.

No need to take the piss.

 

[pocketscience]

The main point being where you lay the blame for your problems. You seem to indicate that you believe that Brussels is to blame I disagree and place the blame in London. I agree there will probably be changes after a "Brexit", however I don't think they will be for the better.
As far as restrictions on benefits are concerned I'm a bit split on this, when I originally settled in Germany in 92 I had to live, work AND pay taxes there for 5 years before I was entitled to the majority of benefits.I didn't find it a particularly bad thing, more a motivator to get my arse into gear!

Don't want to derail, but as I understand it 6months work was/is the German rule for full benefit entitlement. For those initial 6months after resetteling you can even transfer your benefits from your place of origin
You may be getting it mixed up with right to abode rule where 5 years work = permanent residency (unbefristete Aufenthaltserlaubnis).
Either way, all very cool policies from the Eu that enable this.

 

[Fuchs66]

Don't want to derail, but as I understand it 6months work was/is the German rule for full benefit entitlement. For those initial 6months after resetteling you can even transfer your benefits from your place of origin
You may be getting it mixed up with right to abode rule where 5 years work = permanent residency (unbefristete Aufenthaltserlaubnis).
Either way, all very cool policies from the Eu that enable this.

Not in 1991 it wasn't, 5 years until you could get the same benefits as a German citizen. I did make full use of it after the time was up mind!
Aufenthaltserlaubnis also was befristet for a long time can't remember when exactly they changed it to unbefristet but it was a while.

 

[pocketscience]

I was there at the same time and got mine in 6 months

 

[LeslieB]

1991 would have been before full freedom of movement rules came in of course.

 

[Fuchs66]

I was there at the same time and got mine in 6 months

Fuck knows how, I remember some very loud discussions in the Arbeitsamt when I found out that they refused to recognise my qualifications and they were banging on about the 5 years all the time. Was out in the sticks in Niedersachsen mind!

I did get a nice college course paid for by the AA after the 5 years though so worked out OK in the end.

 

[Fuchs66]

1991 would have been before full freedom of movement rules came in of course.

Yes I know!

 

[pocketscience]

1991 would have been before full freedom of movement rules came in of course.

Freedom of movement has been enshrined in Eu policy since the treaty of Rome 1957

 

[LeslieB]

Freedom of movement has been enshrined in Eu policy since the treaty of Rome 1957

Ok. Aiui it was only some point after 1992 it was actually introduced.

 

[pocketscience]

Fuck knows how, I remember some very loud discussions in the Arbeitsamt when I found out that they refused to recognise my qualifications and they were banging on about the 5 years all the time. Was out in the sticks in Niedersachsen mind!

I did get a nice college course paid for by the AA after the 5 years though so worked out OK in the end.

No worries, loud discussions with the AAmt are par for the course East Berlin was definitely open to it but I wouldnt say it was easy going. Definitely not for the faint hearted....There usually are different regional interpretations of rulings. Bavaria's Beamte are notorius for being difficult toward foreigners

 

[Fuchs66]

No worries, loud discussions with the AAmt are par for the course East Berlin was definitely open to it but I wouldnt say it was easy going. Definitely not for the faint hearted....There usually are different regional interpretations of rulings. Bavaria's Beamte are notorius for being difficult toward foreigners

Probably right but like I said it worked out OK in the end so can't really chunter!

 

[Lo Siento.]

Mate I was merely trying to point out that the 28 per cent figure for Switzerland might not be all it seems.

No need to take the piss.

I'm taking the piss because it's this end of the bullshit that's the most insidious.

You're building a conclusion on top of a pile of "common sense" assumptions, none of which bear any actual scrutiny and all of which ultimately lead to a predictable (and noxious) end station: some migrants count as part of "us" and therefore "aren't really immigrants" and some don't and are.

 

[Bahnhof Strasse]

There is nothing being offered by the 'Leave' group, bar a great deal of uncertainty.

One thing LEAVE does offer is the tiny possibility that our future may not be governed by wholly unaccountable, undemocratic neo-liberalists. Leave and we may well end up with that, stay and there is no choice but to end up like that.

And one more thing if we stay:

One thing I am sure of though, if I were in a partnership, and my partner fucked me around, then left, I certainly wouldn't be doing them any favours in the future.

If we don't vote to leave we're trapped in and these cunts will punish us hard for our insolence in ever questioning them.

 

[LeslieB]

I'm taking the piss because it's this end of the bullshit that's the most insidious.

Your building a conclusion on top of a pile of "common sense" assumptions, none of which bear any actual scrutiny.

 

[kabbes]

Assuming this is a serious question?

The language and culture shock of moving between Germany and German Speaking Switzerland, or between NI and the Republic is going to be pretty much zero. Some local laws might be different and that is pretty much it.

A family moving from Spain to Switzerland is going to experience moderate culture shock and considerable language shock.

And a family moving from North Africa or the Middle East to Ireland (or Switzerland, or France, or Germany, or the UK) is going experience very considerable culture shock. Lets be honest, they will. All sorts of things, from the predominant religion, to standards of dress, to attitudes towards gay people and the status of women will be very different. All of that on top of any language barrier.

That is why I was interested to know where Switzerland's immigrants came from

What has any of that got to do with your reason for being anti-immigration, which was supposedly local jobs for local people?

 

[LeslieB]

Sorry I think the board upgrade earlier messed up my above post.

I'm taking the piss because it's this end of the bullshit that's the most insidious.

You're building a conclusion on top of a pile of "common sense" assumptions, none of which bear any actual scrutiny

Sure, it's a bulletin board post, not peer reviewed academic research

and all of which ultimately lead to a predictable (and noxious) end station: some migrants count as part of "us" and therefore "aren't really immigrants" and some don't and are.

I'm not saying that at all. I'm genuinely interested in Switzerland's seemingly very high figure of 28.9% of people born in another country, and suspect the proximity to other countries speaking the same languages might have something to do with it.

Of course some people cope well with a move thousands of miles overseas, whilst someone else might struggle with a move to the next town. But there is a difference in the level of culture shock between moving from southern Germany to Switzerland and moving from the Middle East or North Africa to Switzerland. There just *is*, and to deny it is stupid.

 

[gosub]

Swiss Population stats (2014 as later are still provisional)

http://www.bfs.admin.ch/bfs/portal/en/index/news/publikationen.Document.198989.pdf



In 2014, 1,998,459 foreign citizens lived in Switzerland (24.3% of the permanent resident population). Two-thirds came from a EU28 or EFTA country. This population registered an increase of 3.1% (+61,012 persons) compared to the previous year.


Permanent resident population by nationality
Nationality 1970 1990 20104 2014
Total1 1,084,903 1,127,109 1,766,277 1,998,459
Germany 118,289 84,485 263,271 298,027
France 55,864 51,729 95,643 116,896
Italy 583,850 381,493 287,130 306,414
Austria 44,734 29,123 37,013 40,291
Spain 121,239 116,987 64,126 79,610
Portugal 3,632 86,035 212,586 262,748
Serbien und Montenegro2 … … * *
Serbien3 … … 121,908 78,092
Montenegro … … 2,022 2,537
Kosovo … … 58,755 99,799
Croatia … … 33,507 29,940
Bosnia and Herzegovina … … 35,513 32,583
Macedonia … … 60,116 63,516
Ex-Yugoslavia2 24,971 141,397 * *
Turkey 12,215 64,899 71,835 70,051
Europe 1,030,157 1,036,760 1,504,943 1,698,241
Africa 5,113 20,291 71,527 86,705
America 18,419 29,149 74,511 78,977
Asia, Oceania 9,345 40,649 114,539 132,996

 

[LeslieB]

Thanks for those- something similar to what I would expect.

 

[gosub]

Thanks for those- something similar to what I would expect.

Portuguese surprised me , and to a lesser extent the more Italian than French (but I suppose thats down to the bits of Switzerland I know)

 

[LeslieB]

Portuguese surprised me , and to a lesser extent the more Italian than French (but I suppose thats down to the bits of Switzerland I know)

Yes, although the population of Italian nationals in Switzerland seems to be falling. In 1970 when the table starts Italy was much poorer than many other Western European countries, although the gap has closed considerably since.

There has been quite a lot of Portuguese emigration since the early 90s. Before the 2004 enlargement Portugal was one of the poorer of the EU countries. It still lags behind a bit.

 

[Dogsauce]

Portuguese surprised me

Their economy is shafted, like Ireland those with skills have fucked off to somewhere where they can earn a decent crust for them.

 

[gosub]

Their economy is shafted, like Ireland those with skills have fucked off to somewhere where they can earn a decent crust for them.

i know that, and a lot have moved to Brazil (which being heavily into mining is also wobbling) Angola is also a destination of choice. Interesting then that the Greeks aren't even a blip on these stats

 

[LeslieB]

i know that, and a lot have moved to Brazil (which being heavily into mining is also wobbling) Angola is also a destination of choice.

Ironic indeed.

Interesting then that the Greeks aren't even a blip on these stats

Yeah. IIRC (and it was a long time ago) when freedom of movement was first brought in (long before Poland etc joined) the two countries expected to produce the most economic emigrants were Portugal and Greece. The latter never really emerged to the same extent, although there were some of course.