Tory UK EU Exit Referendum

[ViolentPanda]

Sorry I think the board upgrade earlier messed up my above post.


Sure, it's a bulletin board post, not peer reviewed academic research



I'm not saying that at all. I'm genuinely interested in Switzerland's seemingly very high figure of 28.9% of people born in another country, and suspect the proximity to other countries speaking the same languages might have something to do with it.

Of course some people cope well with a move thousands of miles overseas, whilst someone else might struggle with a move to the next town. But there is a difference in the level of culture shock between moving from southern Germany to Switzerland and moving from the Middle East or North Africa to Switzerland. There just *is*, and to deny it is stupid.

Pah.
There's massive culture shock. Just the differences in grammar, punctuation and spelling between Schweitzer-deutsch and Deutsch are a considerable problem, let alone the fact that some Swiss accents make Germans think they're talking to someone with only half a tongue.
Imagine the existential pain caused by moving to a country where most people speak your language even worse than an east Saxon does.

 

[laptop]

Assuming this is a serious question?

The language and culture shock of moving between Germany and German Speaking Switzerland, or between NI and the Republic is going to be pretty much zero. Some local laws might be different and that is pretty much it.

A family moving from Spain to Switzerland is going to experience moderate culture shock and considerable language shock.

And a family moving from North Africa or the Middle East to Ireland (or Switzerland, or France, or Germany, or the UK) is going experience very considerable culture shock. Lets be honest, they will. All sorts of things, from the predominant religion, to standards of dress, to attitudes towards gay people and the status of women will be very different. All of that on top of any language barrier.

That is why I was interested to know where Switzerland's immigrants came from

So the citizens of each country are homogenous?

Many of the professors at the University of Beirut would experience less culture-shock moving to the University of Geneva than I would if I were exiled from London to Mansfield.

 

[LeslieB]

So the citizens of each country are homogenous?

Of course not!

Many of the professors at the University of Beirut would experience less culture-shock moving to the University of Geneva than I would if I were exiled from London to Mansfield.

You are welcome up here anytime, it really isn't that bad. Heck we've even got running water these days It could be better of course, but so could anywhere.

 

[kabbes]

Sorry, LeslieB, but you don't seem to have answered this:

What has any of that got to do with your reason for being anti-immigration, which was supposedly local jobs for local people?

 

[LeslieB]

Nothing. The conversation has moved on to Switzerland. Keep up !

 

[kabbes]

Nothing. The conversation has moved on to Switzerland. Keep up !

That's exactly what my question was about. You said you don't like immigration because of the effect on jobs. And then you said it is fine in Switzerland because the immigrants are ethnically similar to the locals. But those statements don't fit together, do they?

 

[LeslieB]

That's exactly what my question was about. You said you don't like immigration because of the effect on jobs.

No, I don't like *excessive* *uncontrolled* *economic* immigration, because of the effect on jobs (and housing and services). I'd be happy with immigration with quotas set at roughly the level of emigration (300,000 ish a year)

And then you said it is fine in Switzerland because the immigrants are ethnically similar to the locals.

No I didn't! Please show me where I said this?

I've no idea whether immigration to Switzerland is good, bad or indifferent. I was merely wondering why the number of Swiss residents with other nationalities was so high, higher than anywhere else in Europe. I wondered if many of them were from neighbouring countries.

From the numbers Gosub was kind enough to publish it looks like I was broadly right- about 40% of Swiss immigrants seem to come from France, Italy, Germany or Austria.

 

[gosub]

No, I don't like *excessive* *uncontrolled* *economic* immigration, because of the effect on jobs (and housing and services). I'd be happy with immigration with quotas set at roughly the level of emigration (300,000 ish a year)



No I didn't! Please show me where I said this?

I've no idea whether immigration to Switzerland is good, bad or indifferent. I was merely wondering why the number of Swiss residents with other nationalities was so high, higher than anywhere else in Europe. I wondered if many of them were from neighbouring countries.

From the numbers Gosub was kind enough to publish it looks like I was broadly right- about 40% of Swiss immigrants seem to come from France, Italy, Germany or Austria.

Regardless of whether these interlopers are just from the next valley, the Swiss ain't happy about it, and voted for curbs in a referendum recently...which is incompatiable with their EEA treaties, a car crash in progress.

 

[kabbes]

In response to your quote about immigration being to blame for workers' problems, there was the following exchange:

Classic UKIP position innit. Blame immigration and the EU, but not neo-liberalism and right-wing UK governments. Like it's all the former's fault, and not the latter.

The EU *is* neo-liberalism, surely. I think it is fairly right wing too.

I do blame the UK government for not setting sensible quotas on economic migrants- but then the EU wouldn't allow that. Maybe the government should have played hardball back in 2004, but that is all water under the bridge now.

It was always water under the bridge. Globalised labour markets are a permanent feature of modern capitalism, not just part of being in the EU.

(For instance, the percentage of the population who are foreign-born in the UK is lower than several non-EU countries - Switzerland 28.9%, Norway 13.8%)

That is a high figure for Switzerland. I wonder how many of those are from immediately neighbouring countries and how many are from further afield.

But an immigrant is an immigrant, right?

Assuming this is a serious question?

The language and culture shock of moving between Germany and German Speaking Switzerland, or between NI and the Republic is going to be pretty much zero. Some local laws might be different and that is pretty much it.

A family moving from Spain to Switzerland is going to experience moderate culture shock and considerable language shock.

And a family moving from North Africa or the Middle East to Ireland (or Switzerland, or France, or Germany, or the UK) is going experience very considerable culture shock. Lets be honest, they will. All sorts of things, from the predominant religion, to standards of dress, to attitudes towards gay people and the status of women will be very different. All of that on top of any language barrier.

That is why I was interested to know where Switzerland's immigrants came from

Etc.

The point is that in response to it being pointed out to you that other non-EU countries have higher EU immigration than the UK, you then shifted the goalposts to talk about culture and ethnicity instead of the thing you were originally objected to.

 

[LeslieB]

The point is that in response to it being pointed out to you that other non-EU countries have higher EU immigration than the UK, you then shifted the goalposts to talk about culture and ethnicity instead of the thing you were originally objected to.

Oh for goodness sake there are no 'goalposts'. I've decided which way I'm voting in this referendum, I'm not so self important as to assume I'm going to have the slightest influence over how anyone else votes, certainly not random people on an internet politics forum.

 

[kabbes]

Oh for goodness sake there are no 'goalposts'. I've decided which way I'm voting in this referendum, I'm not so self important as to assume I'm going to have the slightest influence over how anyone else votes, certainly not random people on an internet politics forum.

More evasion.

 

[Lo Siento.]

Sure, it's a bulletin board post, not peer reviewed academic research.

Don't think I was asking for you to conduct any academic research. Anything with any coherence whatsoever would be nice.

I'm not saying that at all. I'm genuinely interested in Switzerland's seemingly very high figure of 28.9% of people born in another country, and suspect the proximity to other countries speaking the same languages might have something to do with it.

Of course some people cope well with a move thousands of miles overseas, whilst someone else might struggle with a move to the next town. But there is a difference in the level of culture shock between moving from southern Germany to Switzerland and moving from the Middle East or North Africa to Switzerland. There just *is*, and to deny it is stupid.

There you go again just assuming something is simple when it's really very complex. There's no meaningful way of analysing what "culture shock" is, what produces it, or generalising about who it has an impact on and what effects it has.

Where exactly in Southern Germany to where exactly in Switzerland? Where exactly in the Middle East or North Africa? Are they from cities, towns or villages? What made them leave? A secular background or a religious one (and what religion)? What social class are these migrants? What education or training do they have? What employment awaits them in their destination country? What language skills do they have? What contacts do they have in the place they're moving to? Is there a substantial community from their place of origin? Are they used to travelling or moving house? What gender are they? Do they have kids? Do they have disabilities? How old are they?

Jesus, I could go on all bloody day. And before you say it, "all things being equal" does not apply. All things are never equal.

 

[weltweit]

Registered to vote today, I won't miss this one!

 

[gosub]

Oh for goodness sake there are no 'goalposts'. I've decided which way I'm voting in this referendum, I'm not so self important as to assume I'm going to have the slightest influence over how anyone else votes, certainly not random people on an internet politics forum.

If you have done so on the back of immigration, I think either way you would be disappointed. However, IN and you are chained to a central pillar. OUT,whilst still tethered, its a step on a thousand mile journey.

 

[William of Walworth]

Registered to vote today

Well the EU referendum will be bringing a first ever for us. We'll have to register for postal votes**

**It might be just under four months until the referendum, but far more importantly , it's also just under four months to Glastonbury

 

[Obediah Marsh]

If you have done so on the back of immigration, I think either way you would be disappointed. However, IN and you are chained to a central pillar. OUT,whilst still tethered, its a step on a thousand mile journey.

This needs to be emphasised. Leaving the EU won't do much to change immigration to Britain. UKIP's popularity is based on an illusion.

 

[gosub]

This needs to be emphasised. Leaving the EU won't do much to change immigration to Britain. UKIP's popularity is based on an illusion.

Depends on the nature of OUT. But the OUT that allows for major change for in immigration policy is SO damaging for business, nobody would be coming here anyway, quite the contrary.

it would add headaches even to getting mutual recognition agreements -that are quick fix on trade treaties

 

[Obediah Marsh]

Most immigration to Britain comes from outside the EU. It's people from the former empire coming to join their relatives, or else refugees coming under the terms of the 1952 treaty. These things have nothing to do with the EU. Britain isn't even a member of Schengen so isn't required to accept refugees who come in through Greece and Italy. And as we saw in 2004, even lawful EU immigration can be blocked "temporarily" (years and years) if member governments judge it's a threat to social stability.

 

[Teaboy]

Most immigration to Britain comes from outside the EU. It's people from the former empire coming to join their relatives, or else refugees coming under the terms of the 1952 treaty. These things have nothing to do with the EU. Britain isn't even a member of Schengen so isn't required to accept refugees who come in through Greece and Italy. And as we saw in 2004, even lawful EU immigration can be blocked "temporarily" (years and years) if member governments judge it's a threat to social stability.

This article from today showing the most recent figures suggests that it terms of net migration over 50% are from the EU. Unless I've read it wrong.

Net migration at 323,000 prompts EU referendum row - BBC News

 

[Obediah Marsh]

OK, it's been a while since I read up on this stuff so I may be wrong. Last time I checked the balance was the other way.

 

[Sasaferrato]

Of course not. But I also live very much in the real world. Can I introduce the following clip Inside Out East Midlands, 22/02/2016
Please give it a try- you only need to watch the first ten minutes of that. I actually come from the southern half of Derbyshire, but Shirebrook very similar area to where I come from, and yes, my accent is pretty much like that as well

Something like Sports Direct should have been a boon to a post mining town like Shirebrook, but much of the benefit has gone to incoming workers. Because there are so many potential EU workers, the workforce gets treated like shit and no one gains except the fat cats. And there is real pressure on housing and services.

This is very typical of why I'm voting 'leave'. People from the capital, jetsetters who work in Paris or Rome or Berlin, feel free to look down on me. Call me narrow minded. Call me a nationalist if you must. Call me pretty much anything apart from racist, which I tend to take exception to. But I am voting 'leave' because I want to control economic migration to the UK, and, following the pathetic offers from re-negoitation, my mind is made up.

Sports Direct doesn't have a good reputation as an employer.

 

[Sasaferrato]

Every part except your house.

Err... no.

 

[jakethesnake]

Sports Direct doesn't have a good reputation as an employer.

Lol... no it doesn't. People worried about the erosion of wages and worker's rights should be campaigning for greater trade union protection. Foreign workers aren't the problem. The bosses are the problem.

 

[Sasaferrato]

One thing LEAVE does offer is the tiny possibility that our future may not be governed by wholly unaccountable, undemocratic neo-liberalists. Leave and we may well end up with that, stay and there is no choice but to end up like that.

And one more thing if we stay:



If we don't vote to leave we're trapped in and these cunts will punish us hard for our insolence in ever questioning them.

And if we do vote to leave, there is nothing to stop the EU from raising trade tariffs against our exports, or indeed barring financial transactions via the London markets. Frankfurt would probably be the main winner in that scenario.

 

[ItWillNeverWork]

Most immigration to Britain comes from outside the EU. It's people from the former empire coming to join their relatives, or else refugees coming under the terms of the 1952 treaty.

Only by a small amount though. And the part about refugees is just wrong.

- 560,000 people immigrated to the UK in the year ending March 2014, a statistically significant increase from 492,000 in the previous 12 months. Two-thirds of the increase is accounted for by immigration of EU citizens (up 44,000 to 214,000).

- 265,000 non-EU citizens immigrated to the UK in the year ending March 2014. This ends a steady decline since the recent peak of 334,000 in 2011.

the UK received 31,300 new applications for asylum by the end of 2014.

31,300 out of 560,000 does not a majority make.

 

[killer b]

aren't the german & london exchanges merging? sure I heard that on the news the other day...

 

[Sasaferrato]

aren't the german & london exchanges merging? sure I heard that on the news the other day...

I hadn't heard that, and can't really imagine why it would happen. Do you have any more details?

 

[gosub]

aren't the german & london exchanges merging? sure I heard that on the news the other day...

Talks suspended, pended the outcome of the EU referendum

 

[Sasaferrato]

Talks suspended, pended the outcome of the EU referendum

Ah...

 

[killer b]

Talks suspended, pended the outcome of the EU referendum

ah, another reason why we'll be economically better off within the EU. This shit is so transparent.