Trump is like Obama. The speeches don't match his policy reality.
"Friends with Russia" Take a look at RT. The Russians already hate him.
"Friends with Russia" Take a look at RT. The Russians already hate him.
The Trump presidency
- Thread starter brogdale
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newbie
undisambiguated
I have to say I'm a little confused the turn this thread has taken. Does the Trump (& American electorate) rejection of globalism count for nothing? Protectionism and pushing towards the breakup of supranational organisations are of minor consequence, there's no decisive break with Obama/Clinton, it's still to be characterised as neoliberalism?
brogdale
Coming to terms with late onset Anarchism
Can you point to anything that the oligarchic regime has done, rather than said, thus far that is/has been inconsistent with accelerating the advanced neoliberal agenda?
CrabbedOne
Walking sideways snippily
Well it might be better just to start calling it Capitalism like in the good old days. Because Trump is if anything American Capital triumphant not some working class hero.
It really would be much less confusing when you've got a billionaire in the Whitehouse mainly set on making himself and his pals much richer and buggering everybody else. We've entered a new gilded age where it seems America is set on remaking itself in the image of post-USSR Russia.
It really would be much less confusing when you've got a billionaire in the Whitehouse mainly set on making himself and his pals much richer and buggering everybody else. We've entered a new gilded age where it seems America is set on remaking itself in the image of post-USSR Russia.
newbie
undisambiguated
won an election based on policies of anti-globalism and protectionism.
If Clinton had won I don't think anyone would be in doubt about the continuation of the agenda. She didn't, yet the claim seems to be that the agenda continues anyway, which puzzles me.
bimble
floofy
How does the order to try harder to deport 'tens of thousands of removable aliens' fit in with this?
brogdale
Coming to terms with late onset Anarchism
But focussing on what the regime does, rather than the populist rhetoric of the campaign, the oligarchic obsession with supra-national entities relates more to their potential fiscal threat to wealth defence through co-ordinated tax regimes, rather than any desire to disrupt international 'free'-trade.
weltweit
Well-Known Member
brogdale
Coming to terms with late onset Anarchism
If that happens, it might hurt some SMEs for a while, but the regime would see that as a small cost for such a visible expression to support their nationalist campaign guff.
newbie
undisambiguated
fair enough, it's early days. Nonetheless the claim that he is pushing the neolib agenda is being made on this thread. I'm questioning whether globalism is a necessary component of neoliberalism. The disruption of internationalised free trade is surely beginning with the the threats to impose import duties on cars made in Mexico? The threats are real enough, and mark a decisive break with past policies.
One of his proposals was for the state to make big infrastructure investment in order to stimulate the economy, get the people back to work, Make Am.er.i.ca Great Again.... the pipelines are the first signs of that. Now we can both see that the main rewards for that will go to the oligarchs in the kelpocracy (oops, that's a typo, but kelp is what you get in swamps, isn't it?
) kleptocracy but again, it's potentially the start of a very different economic climate to what's gone before. Which doesn't mean that the neolib agenda has definitely been ditched, but it makes me wonder why you and others are so insistent it's definitely continuing.
Pickman's model
Starry Wisdom
if it's not neoliberalism what do you think it is?fair enough, it's early days. Nonetheless the claim that he is pushing the neolib agenda is being made on this thread. I'm questioning whether globalism is a necessary component of neoliberalism. The disruption of internationalised free trade is surely beginning with the the threats to impose import duties on cars made in Mexico? The threats are real enough, and mark a decisive break with past policies.
One of his proposals was for the state to make big infrastructure investment in order to stimulate the economy, get the people back to work, Make Am.er.i.ca Great Again.... the pipelines are the first signs of that. Now we can both see that the main rewards for that will go to the oligarchs in the kelpocracy (oops, that's a typo, but kelp is what you get in swamps, isn't it?
CrabbedOne
Walking sideways snippily
You can elevate trade too much. Trump is fine with trade he just sees it as zero sum game in which the US should pillage and take all the spoils. What he's fundamentally against is multilateralism as he sees that as undermining the US's natural position as an extractive global bully. He fears the little guys ganging up on him. That's cheating!
I'd say the signature policy was being anti-immigration which you might call protectionist but cutting elite taxes, slashing regulation, dumping Obamacare, drill baby drill, ending abortion, fear mongering on terrorism and crime plus a lot of just plain old xenophobia where pretty salient as well. It's the same old tax cut juju that attracted a lot of his rather well padded middle class voters.
The thing he's not done is "drain the swamp" there's just a different even more rapacious set of Wall St critters arrayed around the trough ready to feast on public goods but that's the heart of the great Trump grift.
bimble
floofy
Bannon calls his plan economic nationalism. “I’m not a white nationalist, I’m a nationalist. I’m an economic nationalist,” ... “The globalists gutted the American working class and created a middle class in Asia. The issue now is about Americans looking to not get f—ed over. ..I’m the guy pushing a trillion-dollar infrastructure plan. With negative interest rates throughout the world, it’s the greatest opportunity to rebuild everything. Ship yards, iron works, get them all jacked up. We’re just going to throw it up against the wall and see if it sticks. It will be as exciting as the 1930s" (etc etc.)
newbie
undisambiguated
I don't know, but it's not me that's insisting it's neoliberalism. Perhaps a new word is required.
All through the ref debates I was told that the EU is archetypal neoliberalism, with it's focus on free movement of capital, labour, goods and services. Trump advocates restricting the inward flows of those- though obviously flows from America to the rest of the world should continue, else profitability will be dented. If globalism isn't central to neoliberalism, what distinguished neoliberalism from liberalism or just what we call capitlaism?
CrabbedOne
Walking sideways snippily
On BRICS Post China, Russia key to multilateralism – Lavrov
Interesting very un-Trumpian language coming out of Lavrov a couple of weeks ago.
Consider this: Trump may mean the end of Chimerica. Putin might have Rushina in mind. Hungry China's rising industrial might twinned with Russian hydro carbon resources and underdeveloped agriculture. After all what would Russia do faced with a mighty US discarding its existing multilateral baggage and set on aping Russia's own little ways of doing business?
Interesting very un-Trumpian language coming out of Lavrov a couple of weeks ago.
Consider this: Trump may mean the end of Chimerica. Putin might have Rushina in mind. Hungry China's rising industrial might twinned with Russian hydro carbon resources and underdeveloped agriculture. After all what would Russia do faced with a mighty US discarding its existing multilateral baggage and set on aping Russia's own little ways of doing business?
Pickman's model
Starry Wisdom
yeh, if you think it isn't neoliberalism perhaps you'd be better off telling us what it is instead of saying 'i don't know what it is'.
Pickman's model
Starry Wisdom
oh dear
CrabbedOne
Walking sideways snippily
Says the guy who is backed by a billionaire hedge funder poised to make a packet out of market volatility.
newbie
undisambiguated
no, it's for those who are insisting that what Trump represents is definitely and certainly neoliberalism to explain why that's the case. I've put my questions, and only real answer so far has been wait and see. That's not good enough, the signs of a break are there, so why the insistence that the agenda is unchanged?
ska invita
back on the other side
link?
newbie
undisambiguated
the 1930s weren't neoliberalism.
You're right about the Asian middle class- that's what Trump has led on, that riches that rightfully ought to have accrued to Americans went to foreigners. Because globalisation. He's seeking to overturn that, which means overturning the economics of the last few decades. Isn't that what we call neoliberalism? How can it be overturned and continue at the same time?
camouflage
gaslit at scale.
fair enough, it's early days. Nonetheless the claim that he is pushing the neolib agenda is being made on this thread. I'm questioning whether globalism is a necessary component of neoliberalism. The disruption of internationalised free trade is surely beginning with the the threats to impose import duties on cars made in Mexico? The threats are real enough, and mark a decisive break with past policies.
One of his proposals was for the state to make big infrastructure investment in order to stimulate the economy, get the people back to work, Make Am.er.i.ca Great Again.... the pipelines are the first signs of that. Now we can both see that the main rewards for that will go to the oligarchs in the kelpocracy (oops, that's a typo, but kelp is what you get in swamps, isn't it?
Turns out "globalism" and "globalist" are alt-right code-words. You have to say "globalization" otherwise you're dog-whistling.
newbie
undisambiguated
I'm a brit, I don't spell words like that with a 'z'.
What dogs am i supposed to be whistling for?
camouflage
gaslit at scale.
I'm a brit, I don't spell words like that with a 'z'.
What dogs am i supposed to be whistling for?
International-financiers, rootless cosmopolitans, banksters... globalists. Antisemantics.
There's shit on the "globalism" handle.
CrabbedOne
Walking sideways snippily
Err, not quite right, wealth flowing to the wrong sort of Americans was also bad. The not real Americans: the foreigners within. Obamacare as redistributing health care to poor (often black) minorities. Liberal elites (often Jews) twisting the US press and profiteering on Wall St. Union leaders destroying American jobs. A principle target was the GOP establishment but the idea is just to supplant it.
This should not be mistaken for class warfare unless of the directed downward kind. The message always was only the Great Leader can fix it and that's very 30s. Magically make it like it was in the good old days. Trump is looking back even further to a period before the New Deal.
newbie
undisambiguated
oh. urban dictionary says you're correct. Apologies all round, I had no idea. what happens when 'globalisation' is hijacked?
CrabbedOne
Walking sideways snippily
On Reuters Kremlin says it disagrees with Trump's assessment of Iran
Russia not shifting away from its provider of infantry in Syria.
camouflage
gaslit at scale.
I've been using "eurgh!" to describe things I don't like, "eurgh!" is so far not fasched. Armed with "eurgh" we are now well equiped to articulate all sorts of ideas that were previously troublesome and clunky. We can think all the necessary thoughts about class and economics and social matters worldwide using "eurgh!". You're welcome.
camouflage
gaslit at scale.
You say that like the Iranians are just Russias Sardaukar mercenaries sent to establish their dominance over Arrakis, rather than very concerned neighbours who like Russia know they're next on the jihadi&co target list.
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